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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What do think this letter from secondary school means?

38 replies

NaturalBlondeYeahRight · 09/01/2018 18:07

*Over
the next few weeks, we are going to be carrying out some work with students in
an attempt to tackle attitudes towards gender equality. We have a number
of students, both male and female, from across a number of year groups, who
have expressed concern about some of the language used towards them or about
them, that is gender specific.

One
of the first strategies that we are planning is to deliver assemblies to each
Key Stage, exploring how the use of language can impact upon people,
particularly when discriminatory gendered wording is used.

As
you know, we are always keen to involve parents in our work with students. One
of the ideas we have in structuring these assemblies is to use actual
real-life quotations and examples and that is where we are seeking some
assistance from parents. What
we would like, if possible, is examples of actual words or phrases that have
been said to our parents, where gender has been a key defining aspect of the
content. Words or phrases may have been delivered in the workplace or in
social gatherings. They do not necessarily need to be negative but should
encourage students to consider how their use of sexist terminology leaves a
lasting impact. *

They want some examples, but I’m not quite sure what- sexism that I have experienced? Are they confusing sex and gender again? If they just want to address sexism then I’m all for it.

OP posts:
Gileswithachainsaw · 09/01/2018 18:11

Would they be talking about things like

"Screaming/throwing/crying like a girl"

Maybe he use of gay as an insult?

Personally I think there are things that are more problematic than language and a letter saying how they plan to tackle that would be preferable .

SenecaFalls · 09/01/2018 18:22

I'm not sure what they mean by "gender equality" but I do think I would respond using the terms "sexism" and perhaps even "misogyny." There are actually a lot of examples from threads on MN that have to do with schools, such as requests "to bring in a favourite recipe from your mum." And of course, as age appropriate, examples of sexually harassing language against women and girls.

Regressionconfession · 09/01/2018 18:38

I think hysterical would be a good one to explore. Also one I've asked DP not to use - "stop fannying about".

nooka · 09/01/2018 18:56

They are asking for examples of sexism. I don't think they are getting sex and gender muddled up because there will be plenty of examples which have nothing to do with the biological reality of having a female or male body, and be all about stereotypes. Run like a girl for example isn't used because girls run differently to boys (prior to puberty at least) it's used because anything 'like a girl' is an insult. I'm not sure that using the term 'gender equality' is the best though as a) who knows what gender even means anymore now and b) I think it does at least potentially hide that most of the burden falls on girls/women.

SenecaFalls · 09/01/2018 19:02

I think it does at least potentially hide that most of the burden falls on girls/women.

Exactly. I think I would be inclined to point this out when responding, especially because the issue they wish to address is language.

UpABitLate · 09/01/2018 20:10

I'm not sure that exposing the children to a load of belittling sexist put-downs / toxic male-gender-role-propping language will be entirely positive if it's not stuff they've heard before?

Why not just address the language that is being used in schools?

I mean if I write in and say well a man in a van once called me a cunt because I didn't cross the road fast enough for his liking, that fits the bill, but I'm not sure what it adds to any conversations! OK they probably wouldn't use that one but you know what I mean.

Catsrus · 09/01/2018 20:11

I would suggest David Cameron's famous "calm down dear" as an excellent example of a gendered put down.

UpABitLate · 09/01/2018 20:15

I suspect most women will downplay what has been said to them over the course of their lives quite drastically / and certain types of men will put forward 50 times they were oppressed, and the whole thing will be a bit of a farce.

I think they would be much better off focussing on the language that has been brought to their attention and other language that they have heard in use between the students / is on their social media if they have heard about that etc.

Mookatron · 09/01/2018 20:22

I think language is really important because it at once encapsulates our opinions about things and enforces them too in a very pervasive way.

Why, for example do you often call a woman a 'lady' (let me serve this lady eg) but hardly ever call a man a 'gent' - you'd just say 'man'. Or the Miss/Ms/Mrs thing vs Mr. That definitely reinforces the status quo in that women are defined by their marital status and therefore by their relationship to men.

BlueLegume · 09/01/2018 20:28

Quite a sensible approach in the light of lots of issues including LGBTQI etc but also the Harvey Weinstein scandal. It’s quite a gental letter suggesting to me there are issues going on around lots of things that as a school we intend to address at each key stage level. Having been through the system I’d be positive and say they’ve really put some thought to wider social issues and are going to deal with them. It’s also highly likely they have got pupils presenting as transgender coming through and they want to ensure all pupils and parents are aware of this. Fair play - they’ve informed everyone it seems very proactive.

guardianfree · 09/01/2018 20:34

It's great if they're doing it themselves as well - tailoring it to the needs of the students rather than taking an 'off the shelf' product written by someone with an axe to grind.

I'll just put this here (just for any educators reading this). I know there is new guidance that they are about to publish but this is very much about managing the needs of all children in a school, including gender non conforming children:

www.transgendertrend.com/schools-resources/

QuentinSummers · 09/01/2018 20:39

Man up
Dogs bollocks
Take it like a man
Big girls blouse

(I'm trying to show balance here Grin)
The one that grates my cheese is "its clear who wears the trousers in that relationship"

Run/throw/look like a girl

Defaulting to male for people/objects/animals

ForgivenessIsDivine · 09/01/2018 20:45

My favourite recent examples:

The Apprentice: The discussion around the female candidates in the final rounds centred around their families, how they had combined motherhood, had made sacrifices, wanted to do the best for their children. A man's career is never discussed in light of juggling career with family and making sacrifices in respect of family to pursue their career.

Vice Chancellor Salary debate: Focussed mainly on women when in fact they make up less than 25% of vice chancellors in the UK and 2 out of the top 10. The 8 men also paid exorbitant salaries were not paraded in the press.

Daily Mail quoting the wealth of Holly Willoughby and her husband what ever he is when everyone knows that male TV presenters are paid much much more...

NaturalBlondeYeahRight · 09/01/2018 21:08

Thanks for these contributions, it’s a strangely worded letter I think, I’m with some of you in that I think they know enough of these put-downs from the school environment. The school hasn’t been particularly forward thinking in regards to equality up until recently, I hope this is a step in the right direction.

OP posts:
RagingWoman · 09/01/2018 21:57

The wonderful Lily Maynard shared an NUT leaflet on Twitter this morning. Have a look and suggest to school that they get hold of a copy.

I do think its all those seemingly innocuous comments that contribute to the drip-drip of everyday sexism and its a great idea to try to make kids aware of it now before they hit the outside world. Ive had long discussions with my teen boys and theyre quick to pick it up when they see or hear it now.

Adverts: "washing powder helps mum get the laundry done better", "mums go to Iceland", "dads go to the DIY store while mum's cooking Sunday lunch", formula milk ads always depict mum not dad,

Off hand remarks like "cheer up love it might never happen", "give us a smile" never said to men!

Restaurant bills almost always given to the man if its a couple dining. Or man asked to taste the wine even if its the woman who orders it.

At school, my teacher friends moan that they need a big wardrobe because kids do pass comment on what female teachers wear, how often the same thing is work, whether it males them look frumpy/sexy/young/old etc. Pupils comment on male teachers for facial hair, smells of BO/smoke/coffee, or having food stains on clothes, but never for wearing the same suit all term!

RagingWoman · 09/01/2018 21:58

Sorry, link!
twitter.com/lilylilymaynard/status/950523225624195074

SenecaFalls · 10/01/2018 01:59

I think language is really important because it at once encapsulates our opinions about things and enforces them too in a very pervasive way.

So they might ask why, in many schools in the UK, male teachers are "sir," but women are "miss."

Lancelottie · 10/01/2018 11:37

I've mentioned this before, but:

My company refused to have a workplace nursery because 'employees' wives might want to use it too', obviously forgetting that the male employees were related to their offspring in any way.

AssassinatedBeauty · 10/01/2018 15:57

@Lancelottie please tell me that this wasn't recently? That's incredible. Did anyone point out their stupidity?

Ereshkigal · 10/01/2018 18:09

Wow Lancelottie!

Ontopofthesunset · 10/01/2018 18:20

Someone once said to me: "You're the most intelligent women I've ever met" (which I don't believe for a moment, by the way). He meant it as a compliment, but by saying this he was putting me in the category of women, who he apparently perceived to be in general not as intelligent as those in the category of men. He might well have met men who were more intelligent than me, but not women (I'm sure to be honest he'd met plenty of both), but he didn't say: "You're one of the most intelligent people I've ever met'. Which would not have been subtly sexist. And would probably also not have been true.

Ereshkigal · 10/01/2018 18:32

Yes I've had the exact same experience!

claraschu · 10/01/2018 18:41

I would be happy if children weren't always addressed as "girls and boys". Maybe I am over the top, but I think it is unnecessary to constantly mention people's sex in school. Some of the alternatives probably sound too American or too formal: "kids" "guys" "everyone" "children" "year 3" "people", but I would prefer to avoid "girls and boys".

GeorgeTheHamster · 10/01/2018 18:57

The word "bossy"

Bellamuerte · 10/01/2018 19:08

I'd ignore the letter and tell my DC to take no notice of them papping on about this "gender equality" nonsense. Sick of these precious snowflakes who are upset by gender specific language! If you're upset by words like "postman" then you really need to get over yourself!