Women's hour phone in on socialisation of boys and men

[Ekphrasis]

Half way through - who was the wonderful first phone woman who talked about boys being allowed to wear princesses?! Her argument was absolutely spot on. Wish I had the transcript!

👏

On masculinity, I missed the title.

First speaker made a mn extremely good point about allowing boys to wear princess dresses but in a very eloquent way.

I didn't catch that but sounds good. I think there'd be alot less gender confusion if there weren't such strict rules for boys and girls!

Can anyone find it on catch up and post the link?

I think this is it; Masculinity phone in

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09k0ng3

I'm going to listen again as my own lovely boy was very vocal throughout and we had a noisy splashy shower!

There were some stay at home dads on too.

The point was made - which I've been increasingly feeling - that there's no point discussing on 'empowering' girls if we don't allow boys to be girly etc. People don't bat an eyelid at a girl dressed in 'boy' things, but they do at a boy dressed in 'girl' things. As the subconscious message is still that girls aren't as great as boys.

And I'm not feeling there's a reflection of importance about boys being encouraged to be in tune with emotions and caring roles as there is with girls being in stem and 'brave and strong power' roles in general society eg books, films etc. And it would ultimately benefit men and women if there were, including potentially impacting misogyny and male aggression towards women.

I agree we still have way more to do for girls, we aren't there yet, it would be nice to see the same for boys.

My son stroked and hugged an eBay maternity dress with some flowers on it (I readily wear flowers). It's quite navy and light blue with hints of a pink .I asked him if he liked it, which he did, when I asked why, he said he liked the pattern. I asked if he'd like a top with it on and he delightfully said yes. Then I realised I've never seen any tops with flowers that weren't overtly girly pink nor one single flower of a boys top ever.

My son loves gardening and flowers.

It was a caller named Kirsty, I think she was a member of the public not a specially invited guest.

nor one single flower of a boys top ever

Nope, me neither - mens shirts (a-la James whatsit on topgear)

It's heartbreaking watching my 4 year old who loves pink, surpress it, because he's been told that his pink gloves are for girls and he shouldn't wear them, or he was given a jewellery box to decorate for Christmas, and he earnestly told me as he did it, that if his friend came round, we were to say it was his sisters (he doesn't have a sister.. this apparently doesn't matter).

I don't want to get all 'what about the boys' - but what was said above is true, while we continue to consider 'girls' stuff to be less good, it's going to lead to girls thinking they are 'less good'

No I don't want to get "what about the boys" either. What we are talking about is not really like that. It's not poor menz- however there can sometimes be a subtle putting down of men and boys when trying to raise women to be equal. It's hard to explain on the internet.

I've a children's book that is all about boys and girls doing the same, achieving the same and having the same "when I grow up" dreams. Except there's a subtle slight over elevation of the girl's achievements over the boy's. I don't want my son to believe one sex really is better than the other in either situation. Just that both are equally capable in life and have equal choices and responsibilities. (Excepting child birth!)

And believe me, I think there is still a lot to be done for women and girls. It's just that putting this effort into the boys is going to be beneficial for all too. Sometimes it's felt, being the mum of a young boy, that actually his choices have been more restricted by society than those of his female peers. We have to push extra hard for the same choices for him.

• his choices as a young boy. I think it will change as he gets older.

And I'm sorry your son feels he has to repress it already pocket I noticed that started at Nursery around age 3.5 .

My son was teased by girls at school for wearing his sisters handme down grey standard issue school trousers.

He was betrayed by the fecking flower shaped grey button. I cursed the whole sodding world as I replaced that button with a round one, effectively converting the trousers into acceptably 'male' coded ones. The sodding rules of gender encapsulated in one grey flower shaped button.

Boys resembling girls are apparently degrading themselves in our society. No wonder a generation of parents are relieved that there is a celebrated option of transitioning your boy into a girl, rather than accepting that girl coded things be elevated to equal status as boy coded things. Better to enable the child to change than to try to change the rules of gender.

New campaign: flowers4boys!

More seriously, I fear some of this is a homophobia hangover?

What does this come under? Is it feminism? What is a comparative term for trying to argue against this? Gender neutral doesn't quite describe it for me.

I wanted a flower / botanical name for my son but I think there's only Rowan.

Credit to JD sports...

https://m.jdsports.co.uk/product/black-sonneti-floral-embroidery-t-shirt-junior/052091/?cmmmc=googleshoppgooglele--shopping---pla&istCompanyId=9c5cf6f7-3142-4f9f-be57-2fce9c67adfd&istItemId=wtxxqtrlmm&istBid=tzwt&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI2riHj4q82AIVSbftCh1SQQpVEAQYASABEgLAHfD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Aw!

www.patpat.com/product/Striped-Floral-Cotton-Long-Sleeve-Top-in-Black-for-Baby-Boys.html

Aspen? Ash?

Is it feminism?

I think so - I think it comes under the whole gender hierarchy, it comes under the idea that what women do (knitting, embroidery) is 'handicraft' and what men do (painting, sculpture) is 'art' - very broad strokes there of course - but the same thing that makes a woman a cook and a man a chef.

The denigration of the feminine is definitely a part of feminism.

But pocket, there's another thread with an excellent blog link describing "whataboutery" - 'what about the boys .' Being anti feminist and even misogynistic.

I get that I really do, more so when it comes to men but with children I wonder if it's different?

This discussion cannot be whataboutery as it is it's own distinct thread. Discussing men or raising issues that affect men and boys is not by definition whataboutery. It becomes so when it's raised to specifically shut down/ dilute or minimise women's issues that being discussed.

It is especially pernicious when raised by those who don't really give a shit about men either they just want something to shut down women.

As feminists we raise sons. It is our issue because they are our sons.

I don't want to get all 'what about the boys'
I do want to get all 'what about the boys'.
Boys are born innocent.
If they become decent, respectful men then great. If they become mysogynistic pigs, then that is because they have been socialised to be that way. And it's too late. They will probably abuse women in some way.

If society can have a better influence on boys, if we can bring them up to respect girls, then surely that will cause a radical change. It will help to dismantle patriarchy.
For example, listening to the men on the programme who were househusbands - they had no problem with women earning more than them.
The question is how to raise boys better? I know how to raise mine to express their feelings, respect girls, etc. , but what can be done to help boys in general?

I don't think allowing boys to wear dresses does anything to help to socialise them tbh.
I didn't have to stop mine as they believed that girls wore dresses, not boys.
I think I would have objected, I know their dad certainly would.
Society will tell kids if they think they aren't acceptable, not that everyone should follow like sheep. You can hardly moan if you go against the grain.

I thought it was more important to raise them correctly, teach them that there aren't male and female roles within the family.
I taught them to cook, clean, iron and wash, tidy and complete admin, do the garden, DIY etc.
We taught them how to work as part of a team/ team family.
My future dil's are pleased they are more than capable

Hello :) It was me on WH yesterday, and a friend told me about this excellent thread. It’s great to find other people articulating exactly what we’ve been thinking about.

I mailed WH this week because I run an online magazine about parenting boys with a focus on challenging stereotyping (www.sonshinemagazine.com). We set it up because we couldn’t find anywhere talking directly about how to raise boys in a less gender stereotypical way. They asked us to go on air to put our point across.

The key points I wanted to make were exactly as you discuss:
Being "like a girl" is not an insult. We teach all kids that girls are worth less if we don't challenge the idea that behaving in traditionally "feminine" ways is not to be aspired to. This is the drip dip drip of misogyny from the earliest days for all of them. I don’t want my boy to be like a girl… because… what? Girls aren’t as good?
My son really wants to be like the most amazing person he knows: his sister. What could I possibly tell either of them to explain that that is not ok?

There is so little discussion of the need for change in the way we talk to boys - but their actions are part of the puzzle. Boys need the chance (and expectation) to express their feelings, to care for others and themselves and so on, for their sakes as men (as well as for women’s).
I wondered myself today if I was just wearing the acceptable face of whataboutery, but I think, on reflection, I agree with you above - that focusing some attention on the effects of the patriarchy on boys is a constructive contribution to change. We can't fix it for the girls without fixing it for the boys too.

Anyway. Any other recommendations of people or places discussing this? Apart from hanging out here more often. There are a few nice instagram profiles, like thesetwodudes and boyswillbe_

Kirstiebee You spoke well!
Have you checked out Gender Critical Feminist Reddit? They have sensible discussions about gender issues, and people might know of other suitable Reddits. Or you could start one.
www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/

@Kirstiebee fantastic! I listened again yesterday and again thought your points were brilliant.

I'm interested in what you say from the POV of a mother and a teacher. I'm very interested in what you say about it being a part of the puzzle - from my professional stance we can't discuss how to support girls without looking at the boys too. Both for the boys them selves and also to benefit the girls further. (As you eloquently say!) And as a mother of a boy I tuned into the things you talked about early on - from dull 'boy' toddler clothes ok m and s to perceptions of how he should be brought up (to be strong and brave) to what activities he must experience. I must say, some of this came from my husband who was one of a family of many boys and feared that if our boy wasn't taught the ways of boys he'd get fiercely bullied (and now admits how much he was projecting!)

I presume you saw the bbc gender prog boys and girls in the summer? I'm very aware that senior teachers approached discipline with boys and girls differently in my early career.

I'm pleased posters do think this is part of feminism. I think a post on that thread commenting on an article about encouraging girls into certain jobs (and the response what about the boys being whataboutery) puzzled me as I feel young people should be equally encouraged to break gender stereotypes.