Women's hour phone in on socialisation of boys and men

[Ekphrasis]

Half way through - who was the wonderful first phone woman who talked about boys being allowed to wear princesses?! Her argument was absolutely spot on. Wish I had the transcript!

👏

I follow Steve Biddulph on fb. I'm aware some of his writing (raising boys) isn't always that great but the articles and info posted through his fb page are good and for me often reflect the idea that if we do these things for boys, we ultimately make life better for girls too, both now and long term.

Love sonshine!

The article on consent is fantastic and exactly what I've been saying for a while.

We teach all kids that girls are worth less if we don't challenge the idea that behaving in traditionally "feminine" ways is not to be aspired to

Very well put

I don’t think this is whataboutery at all op. I think as you said encouraging girls to be masculine whilst still discouraging boys from being feminine only reinforces the idea that girls are inferior.

We also need to raise boys who respect girls, know what consent really means and are not afraid to challenge the talk/behaviour of other boys. I write that last with trepidation as I was also bullied at school for being an opinionated know it all different.

In my son’s primary school, there are two male members of staff - the head teacher, and one new Y2 teacher. If kids behave badly, guess where they are sent? So the message is that women have no authority, and men don’t do emotional attachment.
Was it Gloria Steinem who said that we now have the courage to bring up our girls more like our boys, but we don’t yet have the courage to bring up our boys more like our girls?

Encouraging girls to be masculine whilst still discouraging boys from being feminine only reinforces the idea that girls are inferior.

Was it Gloria Steinem who said that we now have the courage to bring up our girls more like our boys, but we don’t yet have the courage to bring up our boys more like our girls?

Thank you for more fantastic summaries. As always, mn helps me clarify my uncertain thoughts!

" I’m glad we’ve begun to raise our daughters more like our sons – but it will never work until we raise our sons more like our daughters"

Subtly different but exactly my feelings. It can't work without us tackling both sides.

www.facebook.com/GloriaSteinem/posts/10153129748542854

DS has a flowery t-shirt. It’s a bit Hawaiian in style and I have the same one!

If the socialisation women have received is designed to make them weak against the power of an oppressive class, why would it be a positive thing for anyone to embrace?

Surely it would just be better to remove the 'masculine' label from the socialisation that makes you an equal and socialise girls to embrace those empirically powerful behaviours?

I think words such as brave and weak are the issue, and assigning them to a sex and sex stereotype. It's not 'weak' to be a carer. It's the view that those roles aren't as important whereas you could argue they're as important (even more so?) as roles traditionally associated with men.

I don't disagree about roles. My question is more about attitudes and perspectives and their impact on the roles we choose to take and how we conduct ourselves. For instance we know that women don't ask for (and therefore receive) pay rises as often as men do. This is because their socialisation is against taking risks or being confident, while the socialisation men receives emphasises both.

High skilled caring roles, with their high pay, are dominated by men due to this socialised confidence, and women are socialised away from pursuing them by the social imposition of poor self esteem. Wouldn't it be better to remove the idea that risk taking and confidence are 'masculine' and that humility and self effacement is 'feminine,' and instead emphasise the idea that anyone, regardless of sex, can be brave and bold and that anyone who says 'aggression is masculine, empathy is feminine' is a bit of a wazzock?

Wouldn't it be better to remove the idea that risk taking and confidence are 'masculine' and that humility and self effacement is 'feminine,' and instead emphasise the idea that anyone, regardless of sex, can be brave and bold and that anyone who says 'aggression is masculine, empathy is feminine' is a bit of a wazzock?

Yes.

And anyone can be kind and sensitive and needy, regardless of sex also.,

There is some research pointing to the fact that boys who are taught to not be vulnerable and needy and ask for help can lead to men with mh issues and is possibly the reason for higher suicide rates. Or become dominating and unempathetic and abusive to others, namely women.

But being needy and vulnerable are not positive things. Appropriate self care in the context of mental or physical health is the product of rationality and self awareness. The idea that it is an expression of vulnerability and inadequacy to look after yourself is part of the problem.

"But being needy and vulnerable are not positive things."

The traditionally "masculine" way of dealing with these things, which is to try to suppress and deny any sense of emotional neediness or vulnerability, is not psychologically or socially healthy though. It is a mistake to view traditionally "feminine" qualities as if they were of no value.

Neediness and vulnerability were promoted as women's values in order to maintain the dominance of patriarchal men. This is far from psychologically healthy in itself. They are not merely lacking in value themselves, they were deliberately inculcated to reduce women's apparent value relative to men. The idea that they have some intrinsic value in themselves was promoted to ensure that women would comply with the social pressure to embrace them.

Wouldn't it be better to instill the idea that appropriate self care is a product of positive values that any sex can aspire to, rather than that negative values are somehow positive?

I am loving this thread. Thank you, everyone.

My youngest boy has quite a tender and gentle personality. He put his caring impulses into animals when he was younger. He used to volunteer at a rescue centre and really got a lot from it. Although it didn't openly challenge gender roles, I think it was a great way for him to express himself in a not-traditionally-masculine way.

Thanks for finding that quote, @Ekphrasis - I think this is so crucial.

It's about valuing the traditionally 'feminine' as well as females. Which I think is part of Mephistopheles point? These things (such as neediness and vulnerability) are not seen as positive values, despite the fact that at the right times, they are. Just like assertiveness and self-confidence are AT THE RIGHT TIMES positive too.

Perhaps needy is the wrong word, but we all have the potential to be vulnerable, the key is as said, self care and asking for help and not being afraid. Thought that's an issue for women too. But in terms of emotional literacy, it's naturally encouraged amongst girls (by society, films, tv, books etc) and discouraged among boys.

I completely agree @DrDiva.

I think we can overvalue some traits of the most powerful in society - which is a small proportion of people. They're what the excellent Grayson Perry calls "default man" - basically straight, white, middle class men. I recommend his book The Descent of Man on exactly this discussion - why we value some behaviours and under value others, and how we mistakenly apply them to constructed gender ideas.

The human characteristics of being caring (and self caring), empathetic, gentle, cautious, thoughtful are as valuable to all humans as the 'powerful' behaviours, but they are not held in high regard. I'd like kids to feel they have the whole range at their disposal, regardless of gender constructs.

@Ekphrasis Delighted you liked the article :)
I thought that No more Boys and Girls doc was fascinating (and depressing). Though in a way it did give me hope that really small changes can have such a big impact on the kids' attitudes.

@kirstiebee I keep on at my son about how silly social constructs are - he’s 5 and I knew I was getting there when he told me off for assuming the new neighbours had a little girl, because I’d seen a pink dollhouse!

@Kirstiebee I think the part that particularly struck a chord from a density POV in that programme is when the presenter linked poor emotional literacy among boys to the potential to become violent as an adult due to an inability to understand, communicate and deal with feelings. Which obviously, has an inactive on violence towards women.

Which is where, for me, the phrase "I’m glad we’ve begun to raise our daughters more like our sons – but it will never work until we raise our sons more like our daughters" has a very serious message behind it.

Good on juniordiva dr diva! and good on you.