Good Old Fashioned Sexism, '70's Style, From Virgin Trains.

[ALunerExplorer]

Virgin Trains responding to highlighted sexism with... more sexism. The non-apology apology will be arriving at Platform 2 as scheduled.

Raven, do all the men in your life refer to other men as darling, love, honey, sweetheart?

So do they say things like:

"Paul, I've got tickets to the West Ham match. Fancy going darling?"

"Gavin, I need that report on my desk first thing, sweetheart".

That type of thing?

And if they don't use those words to each other, then can you offer an explanation as to why they don't?

I certainly laughed when I saw who the OP was.

But oh no, we have to be offended at everything now because we have a vagina.

Missing the point spectacularly.

Popchyk It is specifically male/male interactions that don't normally use endearments, though. Some women will call men and other women (unknown or friends) 'darling' 'sweetheart' etc. I think it's regional. DH is often called 'love' by female customer service staff.

Yes, that confused me

ScreamingValenta

"Popchyk It is specifically male/male interactions that don't normally use endearments, though".

That's entirely my point.

Why is that?

Exactly - its like men don't tell other male colleagues how the suit they're wearing that day looks nice, or that their tie matches the colour of their eyes, because its not professional - but complain if they aren't allowed to 'flatter' or 'flirt' with their female colleagues.

They don't compliment other men not because it's not professional, but because of the fear of being called "gay".

Its toxic masculinity which ever way you slice it.

Raven, do all the men in your life refer to other men as darling, love, honey, sweetheart?

I do actually know men who are close friends that call each other darling. Platonic, heterosexual men if that matters? I also know men that call each other 'mate, pal, son, boy, dude' ... is that offensive / sexist / patronising when said in the same tone as 'love, honey etc.'

The men I work with often say things like "Nice suit mate" or is that not the same because it's toxically masculine for men to use male words?

Maybe I do need you to explain it Delete as I'm clearly to stupid / under male intoxication to understand and not get offended by terms of endearment.

A spokesperson for Virgin Trains on the east coast route said: "We apologise unreservedly for this tweet and for the offence caused. To avoid causing more offence we have deleted the original post".

( via BBC News )

"I do actually know men who are close friends that call each other darling".

Yes, of course you do.

I absolutely believe that.

Mate and pal are more unisex imo. Many of my female friends refer to each other using those terms. They would never use terms like honey or love.

I don't feel like 'mate' is on the same level as 'love'. Being called 'love' is patronising. I'm not anyone's 'love', especially not the strange man across the counters love. Love is reserved for those close to me. I just don't get it really.

Being called 'mate' doesn't stir up the same feelings. It feels more 'equal' whereas 'love' (and similar terms) just feels a bit demeaning. To me anyway.

Raven I don't think it needs explaining. No one is saying you need to be offended because you have a vagina. Your statement was ridiculous and I felt the need to point that out.

Yes, the scheduled 'non-apology'. Not "We are sorry that you were spoken to in such a sexist way" - just some vague reference to 'offense' taken, rather than responsibility for the systemic culture that normalises this nonsense.

H and his friends call each other all sorts of terms of endearment - most of the time they are teasing each other

But either way, everyone KNOWS the difference between someone being affectionate/friendly/sympathetic and being patronising towards you. Part of the patronisation is saying that you can’t tell the difference. It is absolutely clear when it happens

Popchyk Good, thanks for being so open minded and understanding, pet (sarcasm and patronizing tone definitely implied).

Delete my statement was such as it seems that only women are allowed to get offended by a term of endearment. I’m obviously missing the point and would like you to explain it as I truly don’t get it!
I call someone ‘pet’. I’m not saying it to be patronizing or offensive. I’m saying it as a term of endearment. Why? I don’t know. But I could DEFINITELY say ‘Sir’ or ‘Madam’ with a huge amount of patronising tone, and mean more offense but that seems to be less offensive somehow? Mate may be unisex to you, but love, pet, sweetheart is to me? I’m not meaning to be inflamatory I just simply cannot understand why it is offensive!

Thats the thing isn’t it. They are unisex in YOUR opinion. Just the way love, darling, hun are unisex in my, and other people I know, opinion. Love is no more patronizing than mate to me, coming from a man or a woman. I don’t understand how you can say its patronizing coming from a stranger but ok for those close to you? I know men who use terms of endearment to each other, to women and I know women who wouldn’t dream of calling another woman ‘sweetie’ or ‘love’

Actually I think it is very easy to tell the difference between a colloquial “pet/duck” etc and a patronising “honey/darling” or whatever

Of course we can. There's a difference between being on a call with first direct for 15 mins sorting something out and the woman/man on the other end saying 'is that all love', or someone handing me a napkin and saying 'here you go honey' if I've spilled my coffee again, and someone being patronising.

One is stranger appropriate familiarity, and one is trying to put someone in their place.

I don’t understand how you can say its patronizing coming from a stranger but ok for those close to you?

Really? You can't see the difference with people who know and love you using certain terms and strangers using those same terms?

Christ, work conversations with you must be pretty uncomfortable!

I don’t understand how you can say its patronizing coming from a stranger but ok for those close to you?

Okay you lost me at this bit. You seriously don't know the difference?

I have a nickname that only family members refer to me as occasionally as an affectionate term. If a stranger started calling me by this nickname I would think it was really odd and inappropriate.

It's the same thing with terms like love etc. Just because the person saying it doesn't mean to be patronising or offensive doesn't mean the person on the receiving end can't perceive it that way.

It depends what you are used to.

I say love because it was the norm growing up.

This is the problem: lack of tolerance of others.

Windy and I can guarantee that if I were talking to you I would know that your “love” was not intended to be patronising. I hate this idea that women (or rather, feminists) are incapable of understanding when something is intended to be patronising and when it isn’t. I am certain that if the woman felt patronised, it’s because the man intended to patronise

“Just because the person saying it doesn't mean to be patronising or offensive doesn't mean the person on the receiving end can't perceive it that way.”

I don’t really think this is true - I think women can absolutely tell when it isn’t intentional and will let things that discomfort them go because they know the other person doesn’t realise how they come across

*true in this case, I mean

Well there is at least one poster here who sees it as a perhaps "inappropriate" word to use to a stranger. ( I can't quote itas I find it depressing and don't want to read it again!)