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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is the trans movement mainly enforced by a certain generation?

74 replies

BornAgainFem · 31/12/2017 16:28

I'm 30. When I speak to my friends IRL about the infiltration of women's spaces and underlying misogyny in the transgender movement, most of them disagree with me or think I'm fixating on a non-issue.
Most the people who do agree with me are older than me (DM's generation/Julie Bindel/Germaine Greer et al).
My concern is that once that generation die out, noone will be fighting our corner.
The younger generation seem to be much more accepting and forceful of the whole gender trainwagon. Is it going to get a whole lot worse? How many of you on here are 30 and under?

OP posts:
irretating · 01/01/2018 12:40

I remember being 18,19, 20 or so and listening to my old mum say things like ''they say they feel like a woman, well I'll tell them what a bloody woman feels like, she feels like a human being''. I used to think she was old-fashioned and bigoted, and now I am her.

whoputthecatout · 01/01/2018 15:55

That's the reassuring thing as you get older isn't it? Life comes and smacks you in the face, then you get it.

All the crap your parents spoke suddenly seems not so crap after all.

What's that old saying? When you are 16 you think your parents know nothing. By the time you are 20 you are surprised how much they've learned. I wouldn't use 16 and 20 particularly - most of us take much longer for the lightbulb moment - but I agree with the sentiment.

irretating · 01/01/2018 16:37

It's reassuring in that respect, that in 10 years time a good chunk of these young women will peak trans and come and join us. However, it does highlight a huge gulf between us and that generation.

It's odd being thought of as a bastion of privilege, I'm guessing that lies near the root of it all. We're not oppressed enough compared to other groups therefore our experiences of sex based oppression are taken lightly.

lizzieoak · 01/01/2018 16:51

I don’t think it’s a generational thing at all. I’ve seen a lot of support for it in my community from the middle-aged - and that’s sort of a broad ideological support. The only 2 young people I’ve talked to about it are my kids and both are open to the idea that some people (a minority) may need to transition. My daughter, like me, see the problem with the erosion of women’s spaces and the denial of women’s learned and biological experience. My son (17) has a way to go on getting some aspects of that, but did get my concern that the sudden uptake in it may reflect some weird sort of homophobia. I said “well, it’s all very binary isn’t it? Maybe some kids are really just both girls, and some are campy boys, and that should be okay.”

I haven’t rtwt but if there’s any millennial bashing going on downthread, count me out. They’ve come into a stressful world not of their own making and will never have the easy life many of my (slightly older) peers did. I sit here in the house I own (mortgage) with my old car, unable to go on holiday and I think “I have a mortgage equal to my daughters tiny rented flat.” She won’t own a house till I die as it’s unaffordable where we live. I have no idea why people bash millenials.

BatShite · 01/01/2018 16:55

Well I am 30, near all my friends are gender critical now. they weren't, until I started talking to them about it all. As they (like many) thought 'transsexual' when talking about trans. Not these female penis types.

My brother just turned 20 and thinks its all a load of bollocks. Apparently most of his uni friends think the same.

lizzieoak · 01/01/2018 17:19

Bloody autocorrect- sorry, should have read below that “maybe some girls are just butch girls” - the autocorrect was confusing. Really must proofread.

Thermostatpolice · 01/01/2018 17:25

makeourfuture

"I wonder if someone here can draw a link, please, between these conditions and Owen Jones? Or the "left-wing university bubble"?"

Do you think that there's a link between the problems that millennial will face and Owen Jones? I'm not sure that I see one, TBH.

Thermostatpolice · 01/01/2018 17:27

*millenials.

Much as I dislike OJ's misogyny, he isn't responsible for the economic difficulties that millennials will face. Or the housing crisis. Or am I missing something?

guardianfree · 01/01/2018 17:36

lizzieoak
Hopefully there isn't millenial bashing and I agree about the wretched hand they have been dealt.
I do think it's worth remembering that younger people are very vulnerable to online bullying - much more so than older people I suspect. So for them, to have seen the appalling bullying of gender critical women (Jenni Murray, Germaine Greer, Helen Steel etc) they will be even more wary of saying anything that could be construed of as transphobic. My children in their 20s have shifted to being gender critical after some challenging discussions but are very worried for me in terms of my safety as they know how dangerous some of the activists can be Sad

Betti935 · 01/01/2018 18:54

I think this story was quite telling:

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/11/27/oxford-college-votes-calls-gender-neutral-toilets-amid-fears/

Students (narrowly) voted against gender neutral toilets in a secret ballot and are quoted being worried about voting that way if it had been a public ballot.

I think only a minority of young people are actively pushing for this stuff but others are too afraid to speak out. (That doesn't mean that they are full out gender critical - just that they are not 100% on board with everything coming from the transactivists).

It worries me that those questioning aspects of the transactivist agenda may not have the background knowledge to understand what is going on or know where to get that knowledge from. I mean, I remember being taught at school about the difference between gender and sex and there was an understanding that girls could like traditionally masculine things and boys could like traditionally feminine things. The extent to which this was approved of as appropriate behaviour varied of course but everyone was clear that it didn't mean they were 'really' the opposite sex.

As a generation being brought up with with very strict gender stereotypes and now being taught at school from a young age that the definition of boy is someone who likes football, rough and tumble games etc and that the definition of girl is someone who likes wearing pretty dresses and playing with Barbie dolls will it be easy for this generation to 'unravel' this misinformation?

lizzieoak · 01/01/2018 19:10

I think, too, guardianfree, that millenials have been taught the idea that the minority is always right, whether the minority is ethnic, religious, sexual preference, hat wearers, coffee drinkers, those who prefer barn owls to snowy etc. So they’re wary of sticking their heads above the parapet and being called a snowy owl defender. Because clearly that’s wrong!

I’m more old Labour and try to take issues on somewhat of a case by case basis (or so I tell myself). I’m not sure adhering to party lines 100% of the time leads to healthy outcomes.

In the case of some trans activists, it seems that women must be in the wrong as there are more of us than there are of radical trans types, and majority = wrong. Or such is how it comes across in some parts of the media/certain politicians.

Betti935 · 01/01/2018 19:11

My concern is that once that generation die out, noone will be fighting our corner.

Looking at it from a positive perspective, lots and lots of people are waking up to this. Just take a look at the peak trans thread on reddit (www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/7fdj38/peak_trans_vi_tell_your_story_here/) and all the people on Mumsnet who have changed their mind on this (myself included).

Also, there are future generations coming through after that generation - The babies being born today will be hitting university when this generation are reaching their 40s and will react against and view with contempt those "stupid, ignorant old women" (not so much the men...) in the same way that this generation is currently looking with disdain at us.

It worries me that they will have been indoctrinated in the trans agenda from a young age but things will change. It may be for the worse (ie trans-disability and trans-racialism may have also taken hold and they may look back in horror at the transactivists who said they were completely different and didn't support the rights of trans-black people). But there may be a new enlightenment with that generation embracing science, reason and debate.

Ereshkigal · 01/01/2018 19:18

I agree. I definitely think there will be a backlash from the new generation against their parents' one. And the children who have their lives ruined by uncritical trans affirmation and the push towards blockers, hormones and surgery will blame them.

NotSupposedtobeHere · 01/01/2018 21:11

I can't quite pinpoint where the general impetus comes from

I wish I knew - it's really perplexing how quickly it's all happened.

I can't help feeling there's a deeply anti-feminist misogynist tinge, and it's a generational one: putting two fingers up at the maternal authority and telling these "old crones" like Dr Greer or a number of us posting here), that we are irrelevant.

guardianfree · 01/01/2018 21:27

This is such a shocking thread. All these millions being invested in advancing all sorts of 'cosmetic' / vanity type treatments by the NHS and yet we haven't managed to provide levels safe maternity care which don't leave women physically wrecked.

So many women suffering in silence. The vaginal mesh issue is just the tip of the iceberg isn't it? Sad

guardianfree · 01/01/2018 21:28

Gah - wrong thread Blush

Ereshkigal · 01/01/2018 22:19

I don't think it's the wrong thread at all. I think it fits quite well.

StoneColdDiva · 01/01/2018 22:45

I have taken the classic route from "live and let live" / support for gay rights and trans rights (based on the LGBTQ name) to peak trans in the past couple of years. As a student I used to go to Flesh at the Hacienda, a gay night which was very liberating - a night in a club where women could dance and have a bloody good time away from the heterosexual male gaze. The gays, the queens, the trans did not give me a second look and I loved it and felt a level of liberation and acceptance and community.

I am afraid to say that now peak trans means I can't stand pro-trans stuff, which is ridiculous. I find myself revolted by the process and furious about what is being done in the name of trans.

makeourfuture · 02/01/2018 07:48

I think, too, guardianfree, that millenials have been taught the idea that the minority is always right, whether the minority is ethnic, religious, sexual preference, hat wearers, coffee drinkers, those who prefer barn owls to snowy etc.

This is of interest.

But I think it is understandable when viewed through an historical context. And modern context. Our history is composed of evil perpetrated on the less powerful. Minorities. Women. Jewish folk. Gays. Workers. The poor. Anyone we can exploit.

If youth support for trans issues is based on a mistaken conflation of these issues with those of other groups, it is understandable. We have done just about everything you can do to people who we can segregate and target. And still do.

If there is an attempt to infiltrate, we have given ample cover.

nooka · 02/01/2018 08:23

I don't know many millenials and as I'm not a baby boomer do slightly object to being told that all their woes are in any way my responsibility. I'm generation X and my children are I guess generation Z, although the marketers haven't yet decided what to call their age group yet. It's all a load of hooey anyway, based on North American demographics and events in order for companies to try and make more money.

My children have been exposed to this stuff in a way I haven't so much because they have classmates and friends who identify as trans, non binary, asexual etc as well as those who are gay, lesbian and bisexual. I note that only the identifiers make demands on other people and am somewhat relieved that my dd does not want to join things like the gay-straight alliance as I think as both bisexual and non conforming she'd get a fair bit of pressure to 'come out' as trans. Which is really shit as she might well like the support (although she feels that bisexuals aren't accepted anyway - it's weirdly more acceptable to say that you are the opposite sex than that you fancy both sexes). ds on the other hand went through a stage of thinking that it was possible to have a literal sex change. I'm not sure what his beliefs are now as he thinks I'm too TERFy to talk about this sort of thing anymore, but he is full of faith that the future will be radically different.

AuntieStella · 02/01/2018 08:31

I don't see how adding ageism to the mix is going to help anything about this whatsoever.

You have decided to limit your views by introducing ageism stereotypes.

You think that's OK, and will happily publish your ageism.

There is no unified view within any generation, on this or in anything else.

I think considerably less of those who embrace ageism stereotypes. And it weakens an argument if ageism is used in support.

The level of acceptance of ageism on MM is shocking. This is a particular pernicious example.

RedToothBrush · 02/01/2018 10:11

I think its about having the confidence and resolve to think for yourself.

When you are young, you are perhaps more likely to get swept away with collective movements and feel less able to speak out against things you are uncomfortable with, because the importance of what others think of you is more important when you are young. You feel you have something to loose socially.

That is certainly not true of everyone though.

That also doesn't mean that you agree with things going on around you. It simply means you feel less able to challenge them.

When you grow older the epiphany isn't necessarily that your views change, its more that you feel less compelled to simply agree with friends and see more value in standing up for your true opinions with more and greater conviction. Its about how your priorities have changed and what you value most.

When life comes at you, you do one of two things - you either curl up into total self preservation or you come out fighting and no longer are as insecure in what you believe and feel that defending your corner is more important. Being critical of the world is a form of cynicism, which we all acquire with age.

This means that older people who might have been more critical when they were younger, may not speak out, because they have responsibilities and interests which make them feel they are unable to challenge. Or they simply lack the time to be able to rally around a cause in the same way they did when they were younger. They might bury their head in the sand with the attitude that they can't do anything to change things, even though they have tried in the past.

Conversely though, they might pick and choose battles they do become involved in more selectively though and their experience and confidence that springs from that, adds wait to their conviction. They may place more importance on it, because its no longer about themselves, but now about the impact on their children and they feel they have a responsibility to speak which outweighs the importance of what friends might think.

So no I don't think that young people believe this shit more than younger people. I think its about how young people and older people have different pressures on them which might affect what they are critical about and what their priorities at that moment in time are.

I think the balance between young and old and which forces are more powerful are ever changing. It depends on whether the tide is going in or out as to which seems more powerful. It doesn't mean it necessarily is. Unspoken fears and concerns can suddenly seemingly appear from 'nowhere'. They exist and are there - they just are silent.

Do not ignore the silences.

RedToothBrush · 02/01/2018 10:12

*So no I don't think that young people believe this shit more than younger people

RedToothBrush · 02/01/2018 10:16

try again!

So no I don't think that young people believe this shit more than older people

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