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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

''She must have provoked him, he was such a nice guy.'' Media reporting of men who kill their wives.

30 replies

irretating · 31/12/2017 11:22

www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jun/17/we-didnt-recognise-that-he-was-dangerous-our-father-killed-our-mother-and-sister?CMP=fb_gu

The sons of Clair Hart, the woman who was murdered by her husband 5 days after leaving him, have spoken out about the way the media talks about men who kill. Her daughter Charlotte was also murdered.

It is a common theme in reporting of these cases, she must have done something to deserve it, maybe she had an affair, he loved her too much and this was his way of showing it.

An interesting point raised is does this style of reporting provide tacit permission to other would-be wife murderers that it's ok and justified to murder ones spouse. That it's normal to do so.

From the article.

He had recently searched for articles about men who murder their wives. One Google search read: “how many men kill their wives”. “I think he wanted to feel he wasn’t being different,

A different case but a few years ago a local woman was murdered, her body was found first and several days later her partner was arrested. I still remember the comments on the local newspaper which reported on it, ''I wonder what she did to him to make him snap'''. Again the newspaper was ''nice guy, quiet, totally unexpected'' etc etc.

OP posts:
MiaowTheCat · 31/12/2017 11:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Amethyst975 · 31/12/2017 11:30

Ah sorry, it was the same family.

Amethyst975 · 31/12/2017 11:31

Even worse, it’s not the same family... Sorry, I’m sleep deprived and confused...

ALunerExplorer · 31/12/2017 14:10

It's like a pavlovian response: "he was probably stressed" "things had been hard for him" "he was never unreasonable with me"..

Oh how the excuses tumble out without anyone seemingly raising much of a sweat.

Make men accountable for their bloody choices, because their violence is always a bloody choice, and they sodding well can control it.

SomeOldFogey · 31/12/2017 14:21

It's amazing how women can control themselves but men can't isn't it. They always have one excuse after another.

MayFayner · 31/12/2017 14:27

I thought of Clodagh too, amethyst.

Very sad cases.

ALunerExplorer · 31/12/2017 14:56

Men can control themselves. When they are violent, they are not losing control - they are asserting it.

The same for rape. Its a consciously chosen act of dominance.

We need to hold men accountable for their choices.

SophoclesTheFox · 31/12/2017 15:07

When they are violent, they are not losing control - they are asserting it.

Absolutely agree.

I wish I could remember the report I'd seen it in, but I did once see an honest assessment of a family annihilator - rather than the parade of "He seemed like such a good guy", and people falling over themselves to say how it must have been something the woman did, the neighbour said "To be honest, he always seemed like a bit of a cunt". That seemed more realistic.

I never do understand why people seem more comforted by believing that male violence descends like a tornado from a blue sky and you can't see it coming or understand it or control it. When we read about a man murdering a woman, the most likely explanation is that he has perpetrated violence on her and maybe others for years, and the murder is actually the logical outcome of that. It's so much more likely than that an otherwise upstanding and moral chap who wouldn't say boo to a goose suddenly loses his shit one day and snaps.

It's weird.

Flyingflipflop · 31/12/2017 15:16

Having worked with an awful lot of murderers of both sexes, the same happens for women. I know of a few cases where women murder either their partner or kids, and the reports have tried to find a mitigating factor such as PND, a stressed single mother or the husband having an affair or being abusive.

I think it’s actually natural as people (and this includes reporters) try to imagine themselves in the shoes of the accused. Is it victim blaming? I’m not convinced it is.

TeeJay1970 · 31/12/2017 15:44

Where does the quote in the title comd from? I can't see it in the link.

DamnDeDoubtanceIsSpartacus · 31/12/2017 16:02

I am glad this is called out more and more. We often learn nothing of the victim but huge amounts about how lovely the murderer was. I think it's the "protect the male" default setting our society has.

We see on here someone will outline how awful their h is, then state what a great dad they are, it's like we have to find some positive no matter how awful the behaviour is.

We refuse, as a society, to name male violence or do anything about it. Muttering great dad or eulogising how nice murderers are is a way of upholding the cognitive dissonance.

It's just a weird coincidence that these lovely guys keep on killing.

irretating · 31/12/2017 21:41

Where does the quote in the title comd from? I can't see it in the link.

It's in the paragraph below the picture of Clair's two sons standing in front of greenery.

I know of a few cases where women murder either their partner or kids, and the reports have tried to find a mitigating factor such as PND, a stressed single mother or the husband having an affair or being abusive.

There's a duty of care when reporting suicide to make sure they don't present it in a glamorous and attractive way. Maybe there ought to be something similar for murders, particularly spousal murders. This is assuming that would be spousal murderers are influenced by the reporting of previous murders. It'd be an interesting research project to find out if this is the case.

OP posts:
TeeJay1970 · 31/12/2017 22:40

You might need to brush up on your understanding of quotation marks.

irretating · 31/12/2017 23:10

And a happy new year to you too.

OP posts:
MarieMorgan · 31/12/2017 23:16

Can anyone give a link to an article that portrays the man as a nice guy in these circumstances. I can't remember any.

irretating · 31/12/2017 23:43

On Chris Foster who murdered his wife and daughter, and then himself.

www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/nov/22/christopher-foster-news-crime

OP posts:
LassWiTheDelicateAir · 01/01/2018 12:55

Men can control themselves. When they are violent, they are not losing control - they are asserting it

www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/nov/22/christopher-foster-news-crime

The situation in this report describes a man who, it would seem due to poor business sense, lost control of his business and then very deliberately and methodically exerted control over his family.

ALunerExplorer · 01/01/2018 13:24

This one has cropped up today: former UKIP councillor and ex Royal Marine arrested on suspicion of murdering his wife. Neighbours report 'getting on well' with the couple. Hmm www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/ukip-stephen-searle-murder-arrest-wife-anne-suffolk-county-councillor-stowmarket-election-candidate-a8136401.html

MiaowTheCat · 01/01/2018 13:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

lovecafe · 01/01/2018 14:29

I love how these sons have honoured their mother and sister.

I think much much more needs to be done at a school level - teaching children about violence and violence about women and relationships. Teaching people about respectful relationships. Also letting people understand how society often condones and promotes abuse. Also giving people insight into the lengths that controlling abusers will go to if they feel sleighed.

Leaving an abuser can be extremely dangerous for the victim.
I was able to listen to Lundy Bancroft about this and so much fell into place for me.

I have an extremely violent, sickening and abusive brother and I am amazed at how he has friends or people in social media who give him support. His abuse really got bad when my father died and I was vulnerable at my home.

He is extremely manipulative. I am estranged from him and he has made out to people that I don't care about my family that he did a lot of me etc and etc.

Random people will slag me off on social media for example because my brother promotes himself is caring and wonderful etc and because I don't see my mother (because this would put me into a violent situation). He is also a women hater so he will say something sexist and depraved and then he will say he is a great guy because he helped so and so and people encourage him and so on.

Abusers often twist and garner support from other powerful people - people who don't want to make a fuss, people who want to believe the best in people. For example my brother is seen as respectable to some and just a strong man. He has ripped off people financially and destroyed their lives.

When I distanced myself from my abusive brother he would contact my work, contact my future in laws, turn up at my university, try to ruin my life and I would live in fear it was the unknown. I was so lucky I didn't have dependents and that I had some financial independence.

He still occasionally contacts me and leaves abusive messages on my phone - so he does find it ways to contact me now and then.

I now believe when I first distanced myself from him it was the most dangerous time.

It was my decent amazing future in laws who had some experience of abusive men who really helped me understand just how dangerous my brother was - it was incredible the lengths I had to go to to ensure privacy and distance.

Elaborate things to outwit him.

My now FIL took time off from his work and rented and paid for me to be in a safe apartment (all in FIL's name almost like a safe house so I was hiding in plain sight so that my brother could not find me. FIL also helped me get a new job). In the end I moved countries.

Some people thought my FIL was being dramatic in his support and how carefully we played the game. But how when I read about terrible tragedies I consider myself very very lucky.

vvviola · 01/01/2018 14:43

@mariemorgan the case mentioned above Clodagh Hawe murdered with her children by her husband Alan was one such case. I can't put my finger on the articles at the moment, but at the time the dominant position in the media was "he was an upstanding member of the community, deputy principal of the local school, involved in the church and the GAA, what could possibly have happened to make him snap".

There was a massive backlash eventually (part of which was the "her name was Clodagh " campaign mentioned above).

The inquest was last week and some of the information which came out was horrific (down to him transferring all the family money to his personal account so that only his family would inherit) I won't go into detail on some of the other stuff.

deydododatdodontdeydo · 01/01/2018 18:05

I wish I could remember the report I'd seen it in, but I did once see an honest assessment of a family annihilator - rather than the parade of "He seemed like such a good guy", and people falling over themselves to say how it must have been something the woman did, the neighbour said "To be honest, he always seemed like a bit of a cunt". That seemed more realistic.

That wasn't a family annhiliation, it was the Finsbury Park Mosque attack, said of Darren Osborne.
www.thedailybeast.com/neighbor-of-terror-suspect-darren-osborne-hes-always-been-a-complete-c-t

guardianfree · 01/01/2018 18:10

vvviola
The details of that case are so awful. I do hope that all of those (many from their church IIRC ) finally understood how awfully they behaved in appearing to condone his violence. He was initially buried with the family wasn't he? - And subsequently had to be re buried somewhere else after the uproar.
The inquest at least allowed for Clodagh's mother's voice to be heard. Quite dreadful.

BakedBeans47 · 01/01/2018 18:15

I completely agree OP. It’s so awful. “She must have pushed him over the edge/used his children as a weapon against him” total bollocks. Angry