Breastfeeding and feminism

[user123098]

Hey
Not trying to be a GF or here to discuss merits of bf or ff but just interested in views - someone said to me tonight that bf is inherently anti feminist as it means men and women can't share domestic and caring load of looking after baby. It's a really interesting point as bf does mean men can't be as involved in feeding, potentially bonding etc
What do you think?

we don't give c section mothers a hard time because we recognise the importance of deviating from ~natural.
Well this isn't true. There is a definite feeling of c-section = failure for a lot of people, contributed to by the "too posh to push" bollocks and the uproar a few years back about women being able to choose sections.
see friends still feeding their 9/10 month year olds through the night and there has to be a level of selflessness to do that and keep up with the daily feeds and childcare. Formula can easily be seen as an 'easier' choice as for many babies it does help them sleep and it does fill them up more than breast milk.
I'm not sure this is true either. I know many people who've been up multiple times per night with the formula fed babies until age 2 or 3, as well as parents who've breastfed.

Babies are babies, they are all individual and do whatever they do. I think the idea ff babies sleep better is a myth, and actually quite a damaging one to breastfeeding as it means parents end up giving bottles in desperation for sleep.

Personally I couldn't give a monkey's how other parents feed their babies. But from a societal perspective breastfeeding has many many benefits and it would be good if there were not myths like that adding to the sense women get that breastfeeding is a lot of work and will damage your sleep/relationship etc.

Well, I wasn't really supported by a partner when DS was tiny so I can't personally argue for equality while BF, but it does seem to have worked for some friends. Somebody mentioned bedtime - I remember one friend describing to me that she would feed her children in the evening downstairs and then her husband would take them upstairs to read a story and tuck them in and do the settling (they tended to lie with them to get them to sleep.) I think it is possible to change jobs apart from feeding itself (but there is always mixed feeding) - you just have to be a bit more creative about it really. Obviously it's simpler when feeding is able to be done by both and that's a valid choice but you weigh it up.

To some extent it's what you're used to, I don't think bottle feeding would have been easier for me, as I look at the work of preparing bottles, cleaning them, remembering to get milk in etc and just think that looks like such a pain in the arse - one of the brilliant things about BF in my experience was the fact it was just there in unlimited supply and immediately available without me having to actually do anything. After the initial bit where supply is a bit precarious and you need props anyway, but most people do get past that.

I do roll my eyes a bit at suggestions the mother should express milk so the father can help - as if that actually constitutes helping when expressing is about as much work as feeding is! I mean you can make it happen at a more convenient time but really? It annoys me actually because I do think it's important to look at baby caring as a whole and there are so many other things which can be shared. It's unhelpful to look at breastfeeding and go nope, never mind, he might as well not be involved at all then.

I wonder if the breast is best message comes across as bullying because there is literally bugger all can be done to match the subtle, pervasive marketing of nestle (etc) with their millions (billions?) of pounds

My use of formula had nothing to do with advertising. I do wonder what some of you think mothers are supposed to do when bf doesn't work.

As for convenience the "convenience" of bf was a myth as far as I'm concerned. So far as sterilising bottles a steam steriliser is a matter of seconds.

I think the idea ff babies sleep better is a myth, and actually quite a damaging one to breastfeeding as it means parents end up giving bottles in desperation for sleep

Not a myth in my case. My son went from being fed every couple of hours day and night to sleeping through the night. By the time I went back to work at 3 months I was getting a good night's sleep.

I'm not sure this is true either. I know many people who've been up multiple times per night with the formula fed babies until age 2 or 3, as well as parents who've breastfed

But at that age children are not waking up because they are hungry. My son was waking up because he was hungry. Once he was ff he was getting enough to eat. There is a myth that every woman will produce enough milk.

It’s an emotive subject and definitely relevant on this board
It does feel like it’s impossible to discuss the benefits of breastfeeding without causing upset. I wonder if changing the message from ‘breast is best’ and talk more about mixed feeding would be helpful. HCPs are often a little reluctant to do this but I’m sure it would improve numbers still doing some breastfeeding later on and hopefully improve the negativity around formula.
BF for me was hard to establish but easier longer term as I’m a lazy bugger and it saved me having to sterilise etc, etc. I too had useful advice from tiktok many years ago, as well as finding other online resources. Without that sort of support I would not have been able to continue to exclusively breastfeed. My midwives and hv didn’t really give me any practical support. There does seem to be more community support out there nowadays which I’m sure would have helped me at that time.

There will always be situations where it’s impossible for women to breastfeed and that does need to be acknowledged too eg due to essential medication, physical issues, mental health issues and other factors

There will always be situations where it’s impossible for women to breastfeed and that does need to be acknowledged too eg due to essential medication, physical issues, mental health issues and other factors

Or that they simply don't want to.

The freedom to BF infants on demand is a feminist issue. A woman's bodily autonomy is a feminist issue.

BFing in itself is not a feminist issue IMHO.

I’ve been thinking about this thread a lot. One thing that strikes me in it is when there are problems with breastfeeding it tends to be inderviduals who are blamed whether that’s the mother or the midwives or counsellors. I think this makes breastfeeding really hard to look at as a structural issue.

Lass you’ve been generous in sharing your story so I’m picking a thread of it up I hope that’s ok.
You mentioned felling sick when feeding. This can sometimes be from something called DMER. Which is awful and at the moment the “best” treatment available is deep breathing and maybe a bit of CBT. Not great. Also it’s not widely known about.
As a feminist I think this is because woman are seen as less important. That it doesn’t matter if we are in pain while performing a normal bodily function. So it’s not researched it’s also not taught.
The fact that woman go through pain both physically and mental while performing a normal bodily function and that is seen as the woman’s fault as some choice the woman makes is another symptom of the anti woman culture we live.

Current medical attitudes remind me of old attitudes towards HG. Recognition and treatment for HG is getting a lot better and I think knowledge of DMER is going the same way.

People think DMER is all in a woman’s head for the same reason they say this about endometriosis, period pain, HG, unusual pregnancy syndromes. Because woman’s experiences are assumed to be emotional and exaggerated, and women’s biology is poorly understood.

There was a thread on here a while back about smoking in pregnancy. I'm pretty hard line in my disapproval of smoking and drinking in pregnancy and smoking around children. All are within the woman's control so don't do it. It might be difficult but it is not impossible.

Posters were falling over themselves to defend "bodily autonomy" - saying they don't approve but they would never tell a woman what to do.

There were feminists defending a woman's right literally to poison her baby with tobacco and alcohol.

There have been some offensive comments on here ; ff being an inferior product ; the dogged insistence by some that failing in bf can be blamed on formula products and advertising; bfeeders should be praised.

Comparing the 2 threads I find it bizarre that certain feminists will defend a woman's right on the grounds of "bodily autonomy" to cause real, long term , possibly life-time, damage to her baby but are happy to hector and lecture women about bf.

I recall someone saying on another thread by the time children are 5 years old and playing in the school playground you can't tell which was bf and which was not.

Lass I think I can equally defend your and other woman’s bodily autonomy to breastfeed or not and work towards dismantling the structural inequality that make breastfeeding harder. They aren’t mutually exclusive they are part of the same fight

Lass I think I can equally defend your and other woman’s bodily autonomy to breastfeed or not and work towards dismantling the structural inequality that make breastfeeding harder

I didn't produce enough milk. It had nothing to do with "structural inequality". My son was permanently hungry. No matter how loudly the lactivists shout that every woman can bf it is simply not true.

lass if you had a helpful hv who suggested mixed feeding do you think that would have helped? I’m interested in this as a HCP. I always mention mixed feeding if women are struggling with bf for any reason.

Re reasons for not bf’ing of course not wanting to is a reason...but it’s often because women have been socialised to believe their breasts have a sexual function and bf is disgusting. That’s definitely something that be attributed to living in a patriarchal society, and therefore a feminist issue. Other people may choose not to bf because of being sexually abused in the past, again something that we need to address as a society.
But I think removing these factors most women knowing the health benefits to them and baby would want to try it.

What I mean, and I’m sorry I wasn’t clear was, is that you and other woman who don’t breastfeed should have to justify it. At the same time there are many many woman who don’t breastfeed because they have been let down by health services and society

lass if you had a helpful hv who suggested mixed feeding do you think that would have helped? I’m interested in this as a HCP. I always mention mixed feeding if women are struggling with bf for any reason

She refused to give any advice on formula. And this was back in the day when NHS (and Penelope Leach) recommended introducing solids at 3 months not the current gold standard of ebf to 6 months.

I don't know if it would have helped - it was never suggested.

What I mean, and I’m sorry I wasn’t clear was, is that you and other woman who don’t breastfeed should have to justify it

Well that point has been made abundantly clear by certain posters.

If you want to smoke and drink whilst pregnant - crack on it's your body "bodily autonomy" trumps all harm you are doing to your body. Don't want to bf - oh how dreadful you had better have a reason for that.

"bodily autonomy" trumps all harm you are doing to your baby.

I don’t think most people would be in favour of smoking and alcohol during pregnancy.

I vaguely remember a thread about smoking in pregnancy, but it might have been a different one because I recall the consensus being that if you choose to continue with a pregnancy, autonomy to smoke and drink should be on hold for the sake of the baby.

I'm sorry if my posts have come across as blaming formula products for people not being able to feed, I honestly didn't mean it in that way. Not everyone is able to breastfeed.
My gripe with the formula companies is purely with them, but in the end the choice is with individuals, and I understand that many have the choice taken away from them.
I can't remember which country it was, but there was a place who banned all formula advertising in any shape or form, and their previously low BFing stats rose. This is what I'm trying to get at, not anyone who genuinely can't breastfeed, but the fact that formula marketing does have an impact.

It was not a question of being in favour of smoking and drinking whilst pregnant.

I was comparing the vehement defence put up in the smoking thread of a woman's right to poison her baby compared to the tone by certain posters on this thread.

Bodily autonomy permits a woman to poison her baby but if she can't or won't bf she will be lectured at.

Nobody on this thread has said women should be forced to breastfeed or have their bodily autonomy violated.

You are twisting peoples words Lass and reading subtext that isn’t there.

I get that a HCP upset you. The fact that so many of us suffer trauma at the hands of HCPs during pregnancy, birth and lactation is a feminist issue. The fact that HCPs so often show a blatant disregard for women’s bodies and women’s consent is a feminist issue.

That doesn’t mean that all HCPs and the services they are trying to / supposed to provide are anti-women.

Lass, no one who understands about bf believes everyone can make sufficient milk for their baby - still less continues to shout about it. No one who understands about people thinks that hectoring or lecturing is appropriate, or fair, or kind, or effective. I have seen nothing of this on this thread, and I see it very rarely elsewhere in real life. Some people are ridiculously judgmental in all aspects of pregnancy, birth, parenting and child care, I know - and feeding does not escape.

But what this does not 'entitle' you to do is to derail a thread which attempts to set infant feeding into a global, historical, political context...which gets beyond the individual experiences of a western woman in the 20th/21st century,

We cannot have a grown up discussion if every time someone makes a general point about (for example) structural barriers to exercising a choice to breastfeed, you come along and say 'well it wasn't like that for me.' And it silences the discussion.

Historically, at various points, women's choices in infant feeding have been contingent on men's approval - one example would be the way the serial pregnancies of aristocratic women in previous centuries in parts of Europe came about because men wanted women to return to a fertile state (and bf interfered with that). It led to women feeling literally unable to bf. Now, this did not apply to every individual. We know Queen Victoria sneered at her daughter (Vicky, I think it was) who breastfed (she mocked her and said she was like a farm animal). Vicky's individual experience of breastfeeding showed the pressures did not work with her, but it did not mean there was no structural barrier to the choices made by others of her class and time.

Someone earlier brought up the fact that formula manufacturers' marketing and commercial pressure has created a structural barrier to choice. Again, you pop up and say 'that wasn't the case for me'. I'm sure it wasn't, but it is a fact that in other places, in other times, in other circumstances, commercial activity has undermined the choice to breastfeed by promotion to healthcare systems, as well as to mothers. It's a structural barrier that certainly does not affect every woman, and certainly not every woman everywhere equally....but it did, and does, exist.

I think women should be supported in a free choice to have a happy, comfortable feeding experience and if they want to bf, and bf is not working for them, they should be equally free to access help to make ff happy and comfortable. I think it's wrong that someone's memories of feeding should be tainted by the feeling they were judged or criticised.

But I'm disappointed that in the feminist folder, where we could be expected to discuss the social and cultural aspects of the whole experience across time and place, from a feminist POV, we end up being silenced.

Thanks tiktok - I suggest we simply continue to discuss the actual issue and not engage with derailing posts TBH.

I could have continued on with bf if formula products were banned and advertising was restricted etc

I would have hated it, hated my child, wanted to kill myself every day, my mental health would have suffered massively but yes, I could have continued.

I did produce enough milk, had lots of support etc - I HATED BREASTFEEDING. I remember sitting with cold flannels under my armpits whilst I sobbed with the pain of my letdown. I remember my hv telling me I was doing great as I fed my baby crying and telling her I hated it. I will never breastfeed again and it's nothing to do with capitalism or marketing or evil corporations or me being failed by NHS.