The trans movement in 30, 40, 50 years...?

[imafuckityfuckingfucktard]

I'm new to the feminist boards but have been reading with interest these last several months.

I wonder whether the trans-movement will get greater with time at the expense of women's rights, or implode altogether when more and more young people speak out about ending up in irreversibly botched bodies later down the line...?

I honestly have little clue, but would be interested in discussing with people. Thanks in advance for your replies!

Sadly, I fear that the backlash will only come once a child is severely publicly damaged by this bullshit. Then I hope that not only the charities who encouraged it, but also the loudest cheerleaders get sued into penury. It won't change the fact that you'll have a large number of now permanently mutilated young people, but it might help to mitigate the worst effects it has on their lives.

I think we should look at this in sectors.

There might be some movement in prisons and refuges. Probably as the result of some horrible violence

I think it will plough on through sport, leaving women' sport meaningless. My hope is that some brave person will start a "sport for biological women" that may eventually get back to where we are now.

The really worrying thing is the potential child abuse. The Charlie Gard threads on here taught me that the attitude to parental "rights" as opposed to "responsibilities" are very different in the UK (and the rest of Europe) than in the US. I really hope that parents who want cute girls, or don't want gay boys will be curbed in Europe, because pushing your child into transition must be the ultimate in child abuse.

I think looking at sectors is interesting.

Sports. I think we will go a long way down a road to biologically male winners in every category before it's acknowledged. Because no one gives a shit about women's sports.

Children. I really hope the gay community wake up and start seeing transing young children is often erasing gay children. But it's going to take some very brave gay and lesbians people to stand up.

Prisons, shelters and refuges. This one worries me because of how little people care about offenders and the homeless. I think more women will be assaulted and pushed into very scary living situations before anything is done.

Toilets. Hopefully unisex, fully-closed cubicles.

Women in positions of authority. I am going to LOVE seeing how many awards, places in university, scholarships, political positions and business accolades will disproportionately go to transwomen. It's going to be a gift to men.

The real issue as I see it is the lack of reporting.

We won't know how many places on scholarships, company boards, political committees, awards, etc etc are going to transwomen, because we are no longer allowed to point out that they are transwomen.

That, and the rewriting of history (the disappearance of all "deadnaming" on google searches) is going to make it pretty much impossible to prove any affect at all.

Violence by transwomen will not be allowed to be named as such. Whereas the trans movement continues to be allowed to point out violence against transpeople

I think the trans movement is going to win. I do wonder though if it’s all an awkward but necessary journey to gender being cast aside. Non binary as in opposition to “cis” is nonsense as everyone is non binary but young folk are using this to show how unhappy they are with the current status quo

Ffs...

Ian Huntley may be the savior of feminism

Well exactly terfing, it’s appalling.

But I’d rather it be that than years of horrific incidences being endured by females in females “safe” spaces, by “trans women”.

yy, class action central.

There are probably canny lawyers already planning for it.

young folk are using this to show how unhappy they are with the current status quo

That's a good point, but unfortunately the TRAs are reinforcing gender stereotypes. There is a massive contradiction in the trans movement - "gender is a spectrum and we are all non-binary" and "anyone who is gender non-conforming must be the opposite sex" cannot both be true. It's possible that this will eventually dawn on TRAs though, so far, they have proved steadfastly immune to logic

I think the trans movement is going to win

If the zealots of trans ideology were to get everything they want, there would be hundreds of kids in the UK like Jazz Jennings (but without the celebrity and the revenue streams). The inevitable detransitions coming into public awareness would cause real damage to the movement.

Just to be clear, trans ideology and gender dysphoria are not the same thing.

I think they'll be a horrible few years for women and children but when big businesses realise that they're losing money because woman have started avoiding things like nightclubs, gyms, sports etc it will all be quietly sidelined and biological sex will start to matter once again.

I am afraid that large sections of society equate feminism with transactivism and we will end up with a Kinder Kurche and the other one style backlash.

There are the genuine transsexual population who have always been there, will always be there, and for whom the legislation is in existence to ensure freedom from discrimination as it should be. I don't think that group will change much. The other two groups: the social contagion and huge numbers of teenaged girls identifying as trans is about this particular time and place in history and no one's asking the obvious questions like why do teenaged girls suddenly in 2017 not want to be women in this society? The answer to that question would help. Proper care and support for anxiety, Autism, mental health needs and girls who have experience sexual harrassment and assault, and a proper focus on reducing sexual harassment and male violence would make a big difference to the numbers and responses of this group: this is the generation under which CAMHS buckled at the knees just as mental healthiness in schools started buckling too. That group will change, although there will be other social contagions to take its place.

The third group of adult transitioned straight AGP men are the gender trenders and that's a men's sexual rights movement. That's the group causing the political fuss, that's the group the general public will not put up with once this becomes mainstream, and what's already happening is that women are re discovering the need for women's rights. If it goes much further there will be a counter movement of women's rights which is going to involve average women who'd never thought of themselves as feminists, and that's going to be interesting. We seem to be going through a period in history at the moment that's the last hurrah of a lot of the isms, and what's happening with things like Trump is that average people are starting to get really pissed off with it, grouping together and standing up to it. Maybe that's what is needed in the long term picture to get this stuff finally out of society for good instead of boiling away under the surface.

And there is a percentage of the teenaged and TIM late transition groups who in previous generations would have been rockers or mods or punks or emos or skinheads, will just grow out of it, and teenagers will move on to the next way to rebel against the 'establishment'.

In 30 years this is going to be looked back on like the lobotomy era, or the era when politicians thought it was so right and progressive to send unwanted kids to Canada for a new start, or remove indigenous children from their families (who were obviously too stupid to get with the political agenda) and train them up as culture expected. There will be a lot of lawsuits and a lot of apologies and a lot of wondering what the hell our politicians were thinking. But this was the lot that blundered into Brexit, this is not a high point in political history of geniuses and critical thinkers.

Its going to grow and continue until we stop gendering our children.

I'm sure its a revolte against the intense gendering of children that exsists from the minute they are born.

Of course any child that doesn't feel they fit those steriotypes is going to believe they are the wrong gender.

Society created this by making girls pretty pink delecate creatures that like dolls and dancing and boys tough silly things that like cars and football.

You can't sign away your rights though.

You can simply have them removed from you though. That type of attitude takes for granted that our rights are not set in stone but exist through society's consensus alone. If they are eroded by something they cease to exist. Thus your rights don't need to be signed away, just merely thought of as unimportant in exchange for some other 'higher' purpose. (Rights should come first).

Don't take the existence of rights we have now, for granted. You could unwittingly sign them away if attitudes change.

Good point actually, the people who will probably suffer most in the backlash are the tiny number of transsexual people who will suddenly find they have little to no access to any help.

Signing a disclaimer means nothing. Nhs patients sign forms before operations every day, but if down the line it was shown that they were given bad advice prior to the operation or the doctor was negligent, or they weren’t fully informed people successfully sue the nhs every day.

I would be worried if as a feminist I were agreeing with the Express. There must be a third position. My more frivolous point, but actually it does bug me relates to toilet seats. If the trans movement win on public toilets, is anyone going to bring up the ethics of seat up seat down. Always loved the progressives in Germany who insist people with penises sit down to wee....hope in hell of that here.

I'm sure its a revolt against the intense gendering of children that exists from the minute they are born.

I don't think this is right - I actually think it's an intensity of gendering that is causing this.

I've seen on here many women like me, who wanted to be boys as children, who don't conform to "femininity" rules, who were distressed by the onset of puberty, who envied brothers and male friends. In our cases we were told to just get on with it, and we got used to it and most of us are now content to be female, many of us have gone on to healthy straight or gay relationships, had children etc.

Girls like me now are encouraged to question their "gender", they are told that if they want it enough they can be boys.

The end result is disaster - either not transitioning and blaming all their mh problems on being the wrong gender, or attempting to transition and discovering too late that they cannot actually become male, no matter how they try, but that in the meantime they have ruined their chance of being fully female, ending up at best confused and at worst mutilated and sterile

Historians will look at the current trans activists and wonder why they believed the Tory party was on their side.
The Tories were the ones that tried to make being gay illegal. Not in the dim and distant past; in living memory. They are no friends to feminism. Look at the people they put on the Women and Equalities Committee, and the comments that have been made;

''Tory MP Philip Davies, who opposes LGBT equality, re-elected to equalities committee''
www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/09/12/tory-mp-philip-davies-who-opposes-lgbt-equality-re-elected-to-equalities-committee/

Tory MP Philip Davies says 'women and equalities committee' should be renamed to remove reference to women
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/philip-davies-feminism-women-equalities-committee-renamed-remove-reference-a7558926.html

''Philip Davies, who has long campaigned against what he calls “feminist zealots”, said the committee should simply be renamed the “Equalities Committee”.''

I think the movement is a 'product' of intensely gendering children. And I think 'product' is an apt word because it's tied to individualism; consumerism; capitalism, etc. If the pharmaceutical, clothing, marketing companies etc didn't benefit then no-one would be funding this push to strictly reinforce gender stereotypes.
Ultimately, I think money will also bring it down. Law suits from DCs who have been poorly advised, given untested hormones and unnecessary surgeries will impact massively on how financially viable this sector becomes.
There will also be a backlash similar to PIE, I think, because a small but vocal group will gradually push that allowing DCs to have bodily autonomy around surgery means they should also have it around sex.
In 30 years, some of the 'professional trans advocates' whose careers are dependent on being trans will have re-positioned themselves to be leading critics of it and will blame everyone else for how it has played out.
In fact, give it 10 years and OJ will be frantically reframing to say he didn't really mean a lesbian should have sex with a person with a penis and he'll be leading the outrage about how the medical and education establishments failed trans people.
But ultimately no matter when the backlash comes, women will still have lost places on committees, political representation, shelters, refuges, scholarships, sports prizes and safe spaces. It will be a long battle to get them back again.

In fact, give it 10 years and OJ will be frantically reframing to say he didn't really mean a lesbian should have sex with a person with a penis and he'll be leading the outrage about how the medical and education establishments failed trans people.

This is so true! And his mea culpa will somehow find a way to blame feminists for steering him wrong.

But ultimately no matter when the backlash comes, women will still have lost places on committees, political representation, shelters, refuges, scholarships, sports prizes and safe spaces. It will be a long battle to get them back again.

Yep.

People who have a penis do not have an urinal in their homes. They cope perfectly well with this. (who would buy a house that had an urinal in the bathroom?).

Great post Fraying

You can simply have them removed from you though. That type of attitude takes for granted that our rights are not set in stone but exist through society's consensus alone. If they are eroded by something they cease to exist. Thus your rights don't need to be signed away, just merely thought of as unimportant in exchange for some other 'higher' purpose. (Rights should come first).

Don't take the existence of rights we have now, for granted. You could unwittingly sign them away if attitudes change.

I totally agree. I only meant this in relation to signing a disclaimer and then being unable to sue (for example the NHS)

I'm only too aware of how fragile women's hard won rights are.