Are terms like Male Tears unhelpful?

[Micaela64]

Think about it, we try to explain to men that the patriarchy keeps them from expressing emotions and forces them to be "macho" and emotionless, then any time a man complains about what they perceive as injustices or hardships they’re shamed with comments like "LOL, male tears’" or "fragile masculinity!" instead of respectful counter arguments or attempt at understanding. Can men have emotions or not? It's the adult equivalent of telling male children "boys don't cry!"

How are we meant to argue that feminism can benefit them too and stop them facing the pressure of always living up to stereotypical roles if we then mock them for expressing emotions and feelings? It feels hypocritical.

I tire of seeing the level of debate descend into this sort of name-calling under every feminism article or video. When gay people were fighting for their rights they understood they had to get straight people on side to make real change. Maybe we need to learn from them a little?

Why dont you go to the forums that use the terms you object to and have your say there?

@MephistophelesApprentice why do you think that about @PricklyBall? Seems a bit weird to instantly disbelieve her?

IrkThePurist

What would I learn going to a place where everyone already agrees with me?

AssassinatedBeauty

It seems a bit weird to instantly assume I'm not communicating in good faith and yet, here we are.

Why do you think I think you're not communicating in good faith? And you haven't answered the question, as I'm sure you know.

I don't believe for even a jiffy that PricklyBall did her gig out of concern for men.

Why the fuck not? Do you think she did it just so she could wave it in your face?

After all, a few minutes reading on this (relatively respectful) forum will show that any concern for men's rights is regarded as absurd.

I have never seen an issue raised about the disadvantages men face here - such as high suicide rates, homelessness and mental health issues - being described as absurd. What I have seen described as absurd (and rightly so) is when people look at what a women's issue like high rates of rape, and pipe up "but men get falsely accused of rape all the time". In other words, people call out posters when they try and take a woman's issue and centre men in it.

I'll see your male tears, and raise you 2 women dead a week at the hands of men. I mean seriously how is this even contraversial to point out?

"Oh no a feminist said a mean thing about men one time!" faints but apparently one feminist says a mean thing and ALL feminists everywhere are personally responsibly. Yet point out men rape and murder, and suddenly NAMALT.

If you can't spot the double standard then you wouldn't be able to find your own ass with both hands and Radar.....

When gay people were fighting for their rights they understood they had to get straight people on side to make real change. Maybe we need to learn from them a little?

Why isnt womens 'side' the default choice for men? Why are there sides? We are asking for rights which already exist in law.

I've seen male tears used but mainly in places where men aren't there to see it ie women talking amongst themselves (and we know how much some men hate that!).

Example might be e.g. metoo where loads of women are telling their stories of sexual assault in work situations and there are men saying "but this means I have to be extra careful in the workplace - they might accuse me of something!" so taking something that is a real issue for women, and turning it around and complaining that women raising this issue disadvantages them in some (imaginary) way.

I see that most people on this thread when they've seen it used it's been this way as well.

Like that politician "but this means men won't be able to ask out women they work with any more!!!!!" oh yes boohoo you're the real victim here.. that sort of thing.

Why do you think I think you're not communicating in good faith?

Please, a genuine request - please don't be disingenuous, it makes any discussion unnecessarily laborious.

And you haven't answered the question, as I'm sure you know.

If it's the question "what have I done for male mental health lately?" the answer is that this week I have helped one good friend in the aftermath of a racist incident and assisted another through a dangerous depressive episode.
You don't get nice badges or ribbons for that sort of thing.

Do you think she did it just so she could wave it in your face?

I'm sure she did it for all sorts of positive moral reasons. I don't believe that helping men was the primary reason, if it even was considered at all.

Why are there sides?

Because one side likes to describe every utterance against sexism as 'hysterical' or 'shrill' and the other likes to call it 'male tears' or 'fragile masculinity'.

I am never disingenuous.

You've misunderstood which question. The question I was referring to was why you automatically disbelieved @PricklyBall. I can see you've moderated your response to that slightly and now say that you believe it might have been a secondary reason.

I can't see why you'd do a gig for a specific charity if you didn't support that charity to some degree.

I'm sure she did it for all sorts of positive moral reasons. I don't believe that helping men was the primary reason, if it even was considered at all.

Given that it was a gig for a mental health charity, this makes as much sense as fjsafidfadfh aofdsaf fdsaretr gribble gribble.

Mephistopheles, god knows I don't agree with everything that everyone says on these boards, but you're being a bit of a dick here mate.

I found an example of 'male tears used in the wild. It has nothing to do with feminists promoting gender stereotypes. Its used precisely as CherryChasingDotMuncher explained.

First time I saw it was when Jessica Valentine posted a photo of herself wearing a t-shirt with “I bathe in male tears” printed across the front. Apparently it was in response to all the online / twitter abuse she had received from all the MRA wing nuts the month before. Problem is all context was lost when the photo went viral and all people concluded was ‘oh look, another man hating feminist’.

The gall of that man using Q as an avatar!

Talk about ego

thedancingbear/AssassinatedBeauty

I don't understand your counter arguments. I could support a breast cancer charity and still believe women shouldn't be equal to men. A charity that targets circumstances that effect both men and women can't really be regarded as evidence that one has any positive intentions towards men.

This is somewhat irrelevant to the OP, which to clarify I was simply agreeing with - 'male tears' is an example of active hypocrisy (detectable without radar, thanks CritEqual) that negatively impacts feminisms goals.

Could you support a breast cancer charity whilst also believing that fighting breast cancer is unimportant?

Certain people would like us to believe that everything feminists say has a negative impact on feminists goals.

You have completely failed to address the usage of the phrase and are simply talking as if your personal interpretation of its use is the actuality.

I'm ignoring MephistophelesBellend

I think it's apparent that where the expression is used at all, there is usually some sort of context or back-story such that it's not intended as a blanket expression of ill will towards men.

I'm aware of the expression from seeing someone wearing it on a t-shirt (not Jessica whatsit, an actual flesh person). Shorn of context, I would say it pretty obviously suggests 'I am a feminist and hostile towards all men' and I don't think that's particularly helpful.

I really don't like this phrase. Most recently seen on an intersectional feminist FB group I lurk on, where someone posted a meme of someone drinking from a cup labelled 'cis privilege tears'. I think it is shaming, like calling someone a crybaby instead of engaging properly. Other members were falling over themselves to 'like' the post, and I had a really demoralising struggle with myself about whether to out myself as GC on FB. Which I didn't.

I'm not terribly keen either.

It does often feel like feminists are expected to maintain the higher ground in the face of exceptional provocation though.

They give us rape threats / death threats / all sorts of graphic gleefully violent stuff, we give them male tears.... And we are told not to rise to it.

Still, agree with you.

thedancingbear

I agree.

Generally all nuance and context goes out the window when using social media for ‘activism’ or raising ‘awareness’.

AssassinatedBeauty

Amusingly thedancingbellend has made the argument far better than I can. Sure, it may - as in the example that IrkThePurist provided, be in response to an idiot. But it has an existence beyond the specific usages where it will be shorn of context and therefore negatively impact the image of feminists and feminism.

As AdultHumanFemale references, when these 'jokey' 'harmless' phrases are used against a class in which you see yourself as a member you realise the actual impact they could have on others.

@MephistophelesApprentice she's making a different argument to you.

Evidently I have communicated poorly, because this:

"Shorn of context, I would say it pretty obviously suggests 'I am a feminist and hostile towards all men' and I don't think that's particularly helpful."

Is a better summary of what I was trying to communicate.

I apologise for wasting your time.