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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sunday Times featuring ATH

75 replies

MyYoniFromHull · 17/12/2017 11:10

Some of you may not have seen this yet but interesting piece in today's Times about the erm surprising demands of the Action for Trans Health group.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/action-for-trans-health-activists-want-free-sex-change-hormones-for-children-dhvv5c52v?shareToken=a25843963cfe5dedee932c893d360355

OP posts:
SparklyUnicornTractors · 17/12/2017 17:23

Nauticant if you open Maria Miller's white paper on the government site there are links to the full transcripts of the select committee meetings, and they name the attendees. Also the list of contributors and sources. Worth noting that no women's organisations were given a voice at the committee meetings or in contributing to the paper.

IcedCocoa · 17/12/2017 17:40

That’s a good point Sparkly - you would think publicity for a manifesto is a good thing.

But when there are patients unable to get basic needs on the NHS (my dad is waiting for his clinic to just get the dressings his consultant recommended for his leg), it is utterly self-indulgent to suggest multiple surgeries, hormones and hair removal for physically healthy people should be a priority, regardless of the fact that the ideology is dangerous.

As for regrets, people have to weigh up the risks of surgery in life-death situations, or because they don’t have a choice, not a choice.

I subscribe to the Times even though I am on my complete uppers being a lone parent, because they are at least printing stuff on this.

nauticant · 17/12/2017 18:16

Thanks Sparkly, I'll be investigating further. It'll be interesting to read ATH's submissions. I assume they're going to be more sober than the material they provide their supporters.

RedToothBrush · 17/12/2017 18:25

Women are getting non essential NHS treatments like IVF are being stopped across the country. My Trust stopped doing it for anyone some years ago, whilst people in neighbouring trusts (and living less than 5miles away) are eligible.

I have a friend who wanted a breast reduction on the NHS for back pain and psychological reasons refused. She went private after finding that the NHS were very hostile to pretty much anyone because of budget cuts.

There are dozens of threads on MN about women wanting a CS on the NHS for birth trauma or because they have history of sexual assault or rape or for other medical (including psychological) reasons, be refused and have to battle the NHS to get on which many find traumatic in its own right. A few NHS trusts refuse to grant them as a matter of principle leading to women having to track down a trust which is sympathetic some distance away.

That's just off the top of my head, but yeah whilst everything else is being cut back from hip replacements for pensioners to surgery for smokers, these people think they have a good case for the NHS to splurge money without an scrutiny or assessment of need.

Now whilst I find that manifesto terrifying, I also think the idea that they will get this pretty much as delusional as anything else that comes out.

ANY medical treatment on the NHS has to pass the NICE which has to do a cost assessment and assess whether there is a health cost benefit to performing it. In other words science has to vet. And if it's a medical treatment, then people have to be assessed for need if only to pass ethics and protect doctors doing it.

The idea that this will happen even with the powerful trans lobby, when the trans lobby is resistant to this type of research makes my mind boggle. Especially when they themselves say that being trans isn't a medical issue and they don't want it treated as a psychological problem.

This is one sure fire way to attract scrutiny of the type the trans lobby are desparate to avoid.

And besides all this, someone presently makes money from private ops and hormones. With demand increasing do you think they'll just relinquish their market and potential business? There is a huge rival lobby group waiting in the wings...

Trusts are already ignoring NHS recommendations on many things. Even if a very left wing Labour government got in, I seriously struggle to see this happening.

Political reality can a nasty habit of reading it's ugly head.

There isn't the resources to do it - I don't just mean money. The changes required to enable it, are huge. It's money, specialists, facilities, research and public support for seeing it as priority when there are all these other health issues and social problems associated with an aging population.

15 - 20 years down the line, when it might start to be a possibility, the shit will be starting to hit the fan. All the kool aid kids will be middle aged with kids of their own...

We shall see, but as I say, whilst I am very wary and take the threat of this seriously, there are some bloody huge barriers here.

And I get shit on MN for suggesting that women should be more gobby and demand the very BASIC levels of health care, and told I'm unrealistic and we should just suck it up. My response is always why should women? Men wouldn't accept it. And look here, what's this? Male entitlement in all its glory.

Quite aside from the trans issue women should get mouthy NOW about medical issues to get into the queue for the socialist NHS splurge.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 17/12/2017 19:12

I was really glad to see this utterly bat shit manifesto exposed to daylight .

I also don't understand how the article is transphobic, it seems to me that the author has very deliberately avoided voicing any opinion on the matter and it strictly writing down facts.

Thehairthebod · 17/12/2017 19:24

What a load of bollocks.

Entitled, bat shit, bollocks.

Literally.

Thehairthebod · 17/12/2017 19:25

We demand immediate release & pardon for all trans prisoners.

Wha?

ALittleBitOfButter · 17/12/2017 19:30

ATH say their views have been "simplified" Grin Grin Grin

QOFE · 17/12/2017 19:43

Their views have not been fucking "simplified" Hmm

They've been lifted verbatim from their own fucking manifesto!

BatShite · 17/12/2017 19:47

I bet the manifesto disappears now...and claims are made that it never existed in the first place...

QOFE · 17/12/2017 19:48

There's so much wrong with that manifesto that there's just nowhere to start Shock

I mean....

"We each labour far harder for the health of ourselves and those around us than any doctor ever has"

Er, no you don't. Trust me on this. You really don't.

QOFE · 17/12/2017 19:48

Someone screenshot it quick!

cafeaulaitpourvous · 17/12/2017 19:49

The manifesto has been around for a good few months... it's great it's being aired for all to see in all it's batshit glory!!!

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 17/12/2017 20:10

ATH say their views have been "simplified

I think that to be fair to ATH, the Times should have made available the manifesto in full, so that the nuances weren't lost.

Thehairthebod · 17/12/2017 20:19

Wow, just looked at the Edinburgh ATH twitter. They openly advocate 'punching terfs' and say that 'if 13 year olds are capable of taking pills (which they are), then they should be supported to do so as safely as possible'.

No. Just no. 13 year olds are not capable of making such decisions because they are children. I keep reading things about trans activists agendas of pushing this idea that children are capable of making such huge decisions, as a way into the idea that they are capable of making other decisions about consenting to sex, and always think it's a bit far fetched. But then I read the above and it's so creepy and I wonder if it's mot so far fetched after all.

Is it'll correct that ATH has been consulted in policy formation? Can anyone give anymore info on this? It's terrifying if this is the case, it can't be correct surely?

BlackBetha · 17/12/2017 20:26

"But when there are patients unable to get basic needs on the NHS (my dad is waiting for his clinic to just get the dressings his consultant recommended for his leg), it is utterly self-indulgent to suggest multiple surgeries, hormones and hair removal for physically healthy people should be a priority, regardless of the fact that the ideology is dangerous. "

The most striking thing recently for me about trans ideology is just how self-centred it is, how lacking in any empathy or thought for the effects on others. It's all me, me, me. I want. Now.

You see the same thing in their refusal to even consider how girls/women might feel about their presence in female-only spaces. Just a complete inability and/or refusal to see that anyone else on earth might have valid needs and concerns and vulnerabilities too, or that they might sometimes need to compromise and think of others.

I don't know if this is male privilege/entitlement, or a personality disorder, or something else, but it's definitely something.

SparklyUnicornTractors · 17/12/2017 21:46

Is it'll correct that ATH has been consulted in policy formation? Can anyone give anymore info on this? It's terrifying if this is the case, it can't be correct surely?

As well as general contributions ATH was specifically invited to give evidence to the select committee when Maria Miller drew up the white paper. The transcripts of the select committee meetings are available to read.

MyYoniFromHull · 17/12/2017 21:59

Not only did they give evidence, no women's groups were invited to do so.

OP posts:
Gacapa · 17/12/2017 22:29

That is one of the most insane things I've ever read.

I'm almost beginning to think that there must be some huge conspiracy behind this whole thing now. I cannot comprehend why or how these maniacs are being given not only credence but actual responsibility for monumental decisions concerning policy.

I can't make sense of it.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 17/12/2017 22:43

The Times article said "Under her former name of Josh Bradley she also remains a director of the group at Companies House"

Does anyone have the ability to have a wee look at their accounts?

Backingvocals · 17/12/2017 22:48

Companies House website is pretty easy to use. You can look up the entity and download whatever they have submitted.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 17/12/2017 22:51

Ah, ok, I thought you had to have a subscription or pay - I'll have a look tomorrow

PencilsInSpace · 18/12/2017 08:36

Manifesto is archived here.

Companies House page here.

cromeyellow0 · 18/12/2017 09:20

From the ATH page archived by PencilsInSpace:
Intersex kids still face medical interventions led by doctors who want intersex kid’s bodies to fit into their narrow vision of the gender binary.

Replace Intersex with gender-nonconforming, replace doctors with transactivists!

OlennasWimple · 18/12/2017 10:37

As many people as possible need to see the type of batshit crazy stuff ATH are trying to peddle.

They are like a group of toddlers with their foot-stamping demands and inconsistencies: "we want no medical gate-keeping, but we want full research and information on the medicines we take!"