Advice from a mental health specialist re women's roles

[doobadodobedoey]

I visit a mental health specialist to help me keep things in check, usually addressing the every day things in life getting me down and finding new ways of perceiving them/planning for things.
Last time I saw her I explained my frustration at the role of women in the home. I'd been ill and found that when I slowed down, so did my DH, rather than taking on the things I couldn't do.
I've recently been to see her again and we discussed solutions, in an email, she confirmed the stance I ought to take. Acceptance.
she said that many women are the driving force of the home and when we slow down, it's natural that everyone else does. Therefore I need to accept this to be at peace with it.
I very much struggle to accept this. Why are women expected to be the driving force of the home when men are capable of filling their shoes when women are too ill to function? I don't get it.
Am I being unreasonable to refuse to accept this when I next meet with her?

Thanks all for your responses I really appreciate the insight! As I've posted this in the feminist area... I guess I was looking for other women to concur with my thoughts. But I do wonder what the responses would be like from a cross section of people if I were to post it somewhere else...

Or perhaps they were saying that reality is pretty crap and sometimes it’s easier - for oneself- to detach or accept

From a therapeutic point of view - this. I practice "radical acceptance" because I have a debilitating health condition that means it's better for my mental health to accept living in a disorganised shit-hole because I can't keep up with housework. It's like the old serenity prayer: Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; the courage to change the things I can; and the wisdom to know the difference.

This despite the fact that every word of PricklyBall's post is true. If you lack energy to get through your life, it's not a great time to set about changing the man you married. But he could, and should, support you more. I'm disappointed that your counsellor didn't explore ways of getting through to him - but you can do it here, if you want? Does he actually know what you need of him? And how dreadful would it be for your family to live in a slowly declining home environment?

Most people would recommend spending the therapy fee on a cleaner, I think. It's ideologically unsound, but pragmatic.

I think it would drive me mad to accept a declining home environment. I am in no ways perfect, please believe me when I say this... I am untidy myself. However, some things need planning, preparing etc. Like meals... they need planning and cooking, the kitchen has to be mopped atleast once a week (we have a smelly dog) and I think that's low standards considering, the sides should always be cleaned after preparing food, particulalry when dealing with raw meat, the DCs need their bags packing for school, the washing has to be put away after drying (I don't even iron) for me these are standard tasks that need doing in most households and I don't think it's asking the earth for DH to take on some of that load when I'm unable to. Eg when DC3 arrives... surely for the first couple of weeks, I have every right not to worry about any of these things and 'expect' DH to lighten the load? But then if I were to mention that to my therapist, I would get told off for having high expectations and allowing them to let me down.
Sigh.

Completely agree with Prickly and others who talk about mental load. Women do carry the world on their shoulders.

Would definitely say get a cleaner if u poss can.

I've found NHS mental health services hugely misogynistic. Staff believed what my manic delusional husband said about me and our marriage, over what I was saying, even approving legal mediation as they didn't want to get involved, when oh was really too ill, and me too traumatised. Sorry I digress.

But do agree really finding another counsellor.

Have you read the "facilitated men" threads on here, OP?

You're pregnant on top of everything else? I.e., doing yet another exhausting job on your dh's behalf?

I would suggest asking your DH the same question that you asked upthread:

Surely there's a medium between acceptance and losing my shit/being single forever?

directly with a little detail about what you feel you're being asked to accept.

And as pp says, sack off your unhelpful therapist and spend the money on either a more helpful one or a cleaner or 3 weeks alone in a hotel

I haven't read the facilitated men threads.... I'm now intrigued!

Thermo, Prickly and Ramsay: some fab posts to reflect on too. Prickly, your description of cherry picking tasks has it down to a tea and the "undervaluing of work vital to their comfort" so true. I have never felt so undervalued as I have since becoming a mother and reducing my working hours to part-time to enable me to plough more time into being there for my children.
Im glad some posters understand my decision to take time out when I needed it. I understand that I can't demand time away to recuperate often, but when it is possible... why not?

Definitely head on over to the facilitated men threads doobadodo! There are lots of women thinking along the same lines as you.

It is really depressing that we keep hearing this from all sorts of people. I had something in the same vein from a relationship counsellor once. I just said there was no way that would sit with my values and if that was the only route to a good relationship I'd just have to get divorced. Not sure if there's a good way to take a similar stand with a MH counsellor. Part of the issue seems to be that you can't actually change your DH, so in a sense she's right - the only route to a calm time at home with your DH is if he changes (which is presumably outside the scope of your session) or if you accept it. But I think her instance that you accept that narrow scope is quite damaging.

Have any women ever successfully managed to get their DH to use their initiative more in the home? I think this is what it boils down to.
An example would be: DH clears the table after dinner as I am washing up... the plates and cutlery are left in a pile next to the sink ready for me to wash, but the placemats are left on the table covered in food, the table itself is covered in food, the salt and pepper is still on the table, DC's crayons, coloring book still there even though she's now left the table.
He has "cleared the table" of the dishes so that I can wash them... but of course, the table hasn't really been cleared at all. I could ask him... like I did previous evenings and feel like a nag, he then does it resentfully, I could do it myself and feel resentful. But I just wish there was a way that he would just do the task properly, for himself, for everyone.
How/can we ever change this?
one suggestion I've had is that I stop asking and do it myself, push away resentful feelings, think to myself that I'm doing it for me, so that I can have a nice clean tidy home. But it just doesn't cut it for me. I guess a tidy, clean home doesn't fill.me with joy and purpose- I see it as a necessity, necessary so that I can fulfil my sense of joy and purpose elsewhere with more meaningful tasks. Any thoughts?

Is there a book that anyone can recommend for me to give to DH to read as a way of heightening his awareness of gender inequality/ women's roles in the home etc?

I've not actually read it but there is a book called "Wifework" about this. Maybe someone else can say if it any good?

Hi dooba I have done nothing lasting, but I have had successful periods.
The most common tactic is:
Raise awareness that a task must be done by dividing and commanding.
"I'll clear the table - you can do the washing up"
or the choice:
"Do you want to clear the table or do the washing up?"
This unfortunately means I have the added task of needing to direct everything.
Another tactic is I say:
"shall we clear up?"
And he'll say "what needs doing?"
And I ask "what can you see?"
him "I don't know"
Then I explain in detail so he knows better next time, still annoying but I'm playing the long game.

I've heard you might end up getting a divorce if you read Wifework..

But maybe give it to him?

God this is all so familiarly depressing.
I concur with wifework
I really don't know how you get them to see it.
And your counsellor sounds fucking shit, even if that's her view, she should not impose it on you.
I know this might sound counter productive,but have you thought about a male counsellor?
I have one and I previously had a woman and I found him a lot better at not dismissing things I felt. Now that is most likely just his personality and nothing to do with gender, But might be worth a try

The problem is that it's all about who takes responsibility. As long as you're trying to get him to take responsibility then it's actually you still ultimately taking responsibility.

And then every gain is fragile because any time he likes he can drop the ball because you both fundamentally believe it's your ball.

I was taken by surprise when I had my children. I reflexively took the brunt of it all for several years and then I looked around and saw that I was exhausted and ill and had somehow become an unperson in the family and I got very angry.

I said to my DP: it's up to you to decide whether you want to behave like an adult or a child. If you're a child, please leave because I have 2 children already and I never signed up for 3. I'm not going to explain what I mean because you know exactly what I mean.

He did (despite his best efforts to pretend incomprehension) know what I meant and he did start taking responsibility and actually he had a whole lot of lightbulb moments about his own internalised misogyny as a result of all this. But even if he hadn't I knew I'd be happier in the long run with him leaving than having to live with someone who was happy to exploit me and who didn't believe my humanity counted as much as his. And who was teaching this to my children.

I don't know what sort of middle way is possible.

I have had a similar experience - lots of therapists over the years (male & female) insinuating I should be more flexible, lower standards etc. It's hard to find the right person but worth breaking ties and finding someone you really can work with.

I would go against the suggestion of switching to a male therapist, as IME misogyny/patriarchy is ingrained and while there may be a superficial understanding, the fundamental concept of women saying 'no' alludes some male therapists. I have had this time and again, sadly.

My current therapist I've seen for two years and choose her as she set herself out as a feminist from the off. There's been one off situation where it was suggested during one of my many rants about the inequality in our relationship that DH being a 'good provider' off set other responsibilities but she apologised immediately when realised what had been said.

As annoying as it is, it's worth shopping around to find the right person. They do exist.

colouringin I've found NHS mental health services hugely misogynistic. Staff believed what my manic delusional husband said about me and our marriage, over what I was saying

That's interesting - it suggests it is a misogyny thing rather than simply believeing everyone else over the patient (which could be an alternative explanation if it's a woman as the patient, which I am more familiar with).

I find it really worrying that psychiatric nurses and HCAs (ie. the professionals patients are most likely to have most contact with) don't necessarily have any psychological training or knowledge, and so can blithely medicalise everything and uphold the status quo and enforce that on their patients without stopping to think about it*. It's even more worrying if actual psychologists and therapists are doing this too.

Once upon a time, someone saying the psychiatric system is all about power and control would have had me nodding faux-sympatheticlly and quietly passing them the tinfoil... But the overall system does seem to be about getting people to pipe down and return to their allocated role in society. An obvious aspect of this in the UK at present involves pushing people to be economically productive. And there is of a course a whole history of psychiatry being used to control women.

I hope this isn't derailing your thread OP, it's just I think you've hit on an important issue.

It surprises me there isn't more discussion of this on MN, especially the mental health board.

Fine post, PricklyBall.

I dont want to trivialize your issues and as a bit of a slobby man who lives on his own now but who has lived in domestic coupledom for many years, please find a way to show your dp the magic table video on youtube... I think its Australian and is a funny and telling way to get the message across without "nagging" . If he doesnt shape up after that then go nuclear .

I know a grown man shouldn't need to be told or asked but we do seem to be more generally socialised to let others do for us ...but also without going all NAMALT i know plenty of neat freak blokes and some of my worst house shares were with fantastically lazy and untidy women .

As a counsellor myself though i would ask you what you thought your options were ..stay and put up ,stay and work to change the environment (him) , plan to leave (temp or permanent)and how acceptable each was was to you ..and look at possible consequences of each . Also explore how your dp responds to direction , does he resist , get resentful or feels positive in being directed ...which i know is not ideal as it infantalises him and still leaves you doing the mind work .
This is an issue that comes up time and again in my couples counselling and sadly rarely gets resolved easily without some shock tactic ultimatums ...and i could so kick the arses of the entiltled little princes i come across, you should see the look of outraged hurt when it is suggested that doing the bins is not desrving of a medal .
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Sorry cant link but youtube 'Magic coffee table' I've used it a lot to start the ball rolling ... humour seems to help sometimes...

I can see all sides.

BUT, if I'm ill DP (And the kids) just have to fucking up their game. And I'm pretty upfront with that.

I don't mind that I'm the driving force of my household, but I object to other women allowing themselves to be pigeonholed by spouses and then it becoming a wider issue by default