Islam?

[PaulTheOtherOne]

I'm curious to know what people's view on the compatibility of feminism and Islam is? Not a trick question, I'm just curious really.

I've not really held much interest in politics until fairly recently, well not outside of the basic knowledge of the different UK parties. For the last few years though I've read a lot around identity politics and I try and observe a diverse range of views from the alt right through to third wave feminism etc.

I always had the impression when I was a kid that Sharia law was what extremist groups pushed for, but there seems to be a much less hostile view of it nowadays. I'm wondering whether I was previously uninformed, whether the public opinion has changed, or whether true Sharia law is in fact different from the picture painted by extremist groups?

It seems to be regarded as a bit of a touchy subject by many, but Islam is a religion not a race and I feel that we should be able to discuss it as openly as Christianity, obviously providing we're not gratuitously insulting the beliefs of its practitioners.

What got me thinking about this was the footage I watched the other day of the women's march where Lauren Southern was asking feminists "would you choose Islam or women's rights". I was going to create a thread then but forgot until I saw her name mentioned in another thread on here. She's a goady bitch for sure, a bit like Milo Yiannopoulos, but what struck me was that the majority of the feminists didn't seem to want to speak against Islam and some said that it wasn't incompatible with women's rights.

I always thought it was regarded as pretty backwards in that area tbh. I do plan to do some more reading of my own but I'm at work now and don't own a copy of the Quran so am limited in my ability to research for myself.

The rules in the Koran obviously aren't favourable to women, what religion is? However, at the time it was written it was quite a step forward for women's rights. It allowed for women to be respected to a certain extent, to inherit and to have their own funds. The problem is the way it is interpreted and that it hasn't moved forward since mohammed. The culture of Muslim countries seems worse than the actual religious rules.

Islam like Christianity needs to go through a Reformation . It needs to learn to exist in a modern and secular world. I don't see it as particularly accepting and supportive of women's rights and I think feminists are being cowardly over this issue.

At the time the Koran was written, it was revolutionary for women.

The culture of Muslim countries seems worse than the actual religious rules.

Indeed. And they're not consistent either.

The problem is that we are in a secular society or in a Christian society.
It's harder to tell other religions what's wrong or right. Particularly given our history of imperialism. Interference could have worse consequences.

For example, and as far as I understand it, the more secular and more feminist society that developed in Iran a few decades ago, ended up being linked to US interference and economic exploitation, and rejected by religious currents. It ended up with today's Iran, which is still better for women than some other US friendly countries.

My main feeling is that feminism regarding Islam has to act from within, with wider support.
It shouldn't be imposed from the outside.
Although Islam needs to co-exist with human rights and a mostly secular society in most developed countries. It would help if countries stopped being hypocrites in their international relations regarding basic human rights.

It's not too different from Catholicism and other Christian religions. Lots to be done there, still.

I'll cheer all feminist conquests by Muslim women and support them as much as I can.

I think that's a fair point. The bible is defo pretty misogynistic but as a society we seem to have moved with the times.

One of the women in the march (a Muslim) did actually comment that Islam awarded rights that Christian women didn't have at the time. Although another woman said "you can't ask those questions, which I thought a little bizarre. That said, I often find my myself agreeing with Christopher Hitchens on religion so I probably don't share a very typical view.

I think Christopher Hitchen's view on Religion is pretty common here.

I have had many interesting conversations with my elderly Muslim friend about this. Her views can be summarised as 'we need to stop fawning over Saudi Arabia, Islam needs a reformation and a lot of the really problematic stuff is cultural not religious'.

Some aspects of Islamic tradition she sees as specific to a particular culture and time (e.g. head coverings for men and women being necessary in a desert environment, avoiding pork because it can't be kept safely in the heat). I hear a similar arguments in Christian environments about prescriptive NT Bible passages being specific to the time in which they were written, although they were taken literally for centuries (e.g. women covering their heads when they pray).

You are correct Islam doesn't need a Reformation. The problem is how's it going to come about when just to bring the subject up it's enough for death threats and abuse and highly realistic death threats at that.

Sorry that should read "does" need Reformation.
Damn that pita no edit policy 🙄

I know many Muslim women through work, some are my colleagues, some are parents of the children I teach. Nearly every single woman I know covers her head and several of our parents wear the burka.
My colleagues are not downtrodden in any way - they have an equal relationship with their partners. Most of the parents aren't either - at parents evenings they take their veils off in front of us, laugh and joke with their husbands. But other of our Muslim mums have suffered domestic abuse. Is this more common for our Muslim mums than our other parents? If I was just going on what I've heard, I'd say yes, but as domestic violence can be so hidden I can't really know for sure.
I have never had a discussion about anything to do with feminism with any of them. I would love to know their views, but I don't want to seem rude by asking.

I became a Muslim because I felt quite oppressed in European culture, as a woman, with the constant demands to look sexy and to be sexually available. I understand that it's totally not comparable to what women in the Third world go through obviously, but as a teenager I was not into make up and boys, and I struggled massively with attention from older men and harassment. I went through periods of anorexia, self-harm, and looking quite 'butch', and then I researched different religions and became a Muslim. I feel honestly protected by wearing a hijab and I see it as a feminist act. It is maybe not for everyone, but it works for me and many of my Muslim friends. I think it obliges some men to keep a respectful tone. I disagree with hijab being imposed on any woman though. There is a big 'Islamic' feminist movement in some Muslim countries led by local women, and I find it inspiring. Most Muslim women I know would describe themselves as feminist (as in women being equal to men), nobody fawns over Saudi Arabia, quite the opposite. I also love the sisterhood between women, I find that very powerful, and I love that there are so many strong female models in Islamic history, and I celebrate that. That's only my two cents though, I am very aware that my options would have been more limited had I been born in a different country. I can't comment on domestic violence, I have not come across it myself with Muslim friends and in-laws (although you can never know obviously), but it's a massive issue for women everywhere as far as I am concerned, and in fact a close non-Muslim relative is a victim.

malaguena
"nobody fawns over Saudi Arabia, quite the opposite."
Just to clarify, my friend was referring to people in general, the Government, business and industry here. Not Muslims in particular, although she is opposed to SA financing mosques and schools in other countries.

I feel honestly protected by wearing a hijab and I see it as a feminist act.

How is hiding a feminist act? It's not a solution but a crutch. Surely the goal is feeling "protected" without having to hide.

Why on earth would it be unfeminist to decide what to wear? And also to have some control over the extent to which you are exposed to the male gaze?

All of the Muslim women i have met in my life were oppressed, forced marriage for one at 14 and we managed to get social services to take her away from her family. Another being beaten by her husband and social services took away their baby because she would not leave him and her family threatened her to stay with him, to hear her cry for her baby is harrowing. I am working class and i wonder is it worse for working class muslim girls because they have a shit time where i live.

Wearing hijab to encourage men to be respectful is simply the counter to sexy clothes. In both cases men's reactions are the driving force.

I struggle to think of any religion that is really compatible with feminism TBH. Even if they start off with an idea of equality, such as Sikhism, they end up with the same old same old stuff.

As a white English guy I've only ever had one Muslim mate, a guy I used to kick box with. We became quite good mates though as he'd come round to my house to train between sessions (he was lethal!).

Really nice chilled dude and now appears to be happily married back in Chennai from his FB pics - wife always smiling and look genuinely happy together. However, I'll admit I'm pretty blind to Muslim culture as a whole, unlike the many Sikhs I've worked with who I can interact with exactly the same as my 'English' mates.

Oh and always silence and squirms in the seat from my white middle class friends when telling them of a young muslim girl i work with who comes in crying because her father has threatened her because of the the clothes she wears or because she stayed out past 8 (she's 22) again a working class victim.

It depends on the Islam. My grandmother identifies as Muslim. She reads the Koran daily, she prays daily, she practices some of the cultural aspects of Islam like abstaining from pork products and alcohol. She is also the epitome of an emancipated woman. She was a cardiologist and at the zenith of her career ran hospitals and was one of the most important medical practitioners in her area. She left her husband and raised her sons herself. She read, she traveled, she lead a whole and fulfilled life and never considered herself any less than equal to any man. Unfortunately mainstream Islam is backwards and downright barbaric. However there are many Muslims silently practicing a more enlightened version of Islam (which by traditional Islamic principles would be considered blasphemy). Islam will only be compatible with feminism if it undergoes a large scale reformation.

One of the Sikh girls I used to work with told me that arranged (not forced) marriages are much more enduring than western marriages and that women report greater levels of happiness when surveyed.

Not sure exactly how this criteria is assessed, but on the other hand I've seen several mates make horrendous decisions in who they marry and then admit that their parents were right afterwards. Arranged marriage, as I understand it, is almost like matchmaking where the parents find a 'mutually acceptable' spouse.

Although personally I find religion odd. If you're not going to adhere to the original tenets then surely it can't really be said to be the same religion you're practising.

Like, gay marriage wouldn't have been tolerated in the days of the bible, and all the bits about obeying your husband, killing rebellious children, killing those who wear two types of cloth at once...nobody believes these bits nowadays.

Us second-wavers learned about Islam through this woman.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nawal_El_Saadawi

We learned that whereas Islam was (putting it delicately), not always a friend of women, that the kinds of myths we 'knew' about it were not always true and that to be culturally sensitive we needed to follow the direction of Arabic / Middle-Eastern women (and some others too) in critiquing Islam, as well as being cognisant of our role in provoking political situations in the ME that led to fundamentalism and the oppression of women.

Nawaal el Saadawi continues to inspire me today.

I am working class and i wonder is it worse for working class muslim girls because they have a shit time where i live.

Probably.

I work in HE and I've met several Muslim men and women. Of course I haven't met the oppressed women (at least it wasn't obvious) because they wouldn't have been allowed to study or work, or travel outside of their countries.

But I've met Muslim women from Pakistan, Iran, Sudan, Tunisia, etc, who have their careers and didn't seem oppressed. This ranged from more traditional to more westernised women. I have no complaints about the Muslim men I've met and worked with.
A colleague converted when she married and she seems happy. In fact, her marriage seems to work and her husband is fine (in fact, also a friend), unlike for two of us who married western men. :) She was somewhat encouraged to cover her head, but she has veered from covering to not covering and without major problems, as far as I could tell.

There's still a long way to go, IMO, but it seems to be that there is also for Christians, as well as atheists. So, I don't think feminism is only a problem for religion. It's a problem for many men, regardless.

My impression is that some Muslim countries are still where we were just over 100 years ago, regarding feminism. Those societies need to catch up.

Religion is about men oppressing women, it's the glue that binds all religions together.
Religions are written by men for the sole purpose to flatter their own vanity.
Men wanted sons not daughters!
Sons were seen as a blessing from their gods whilst their daughters were seen as a as a terrible burden, a punishment inflicted on men, and the general consensus amongst men was that the female was sent by the devil to lead men astray and to distract them from their real purpose in life, which was warring and building monuments in honour of themselves in their all male run totalitarian utopia's

Which is why men slaughtered millions of their own daughters, in the hope the next child produced by their wives would be highly valuable sons, not worthless burdensome daughters they could do without.