Islam?

[PaulTheOtherOne]

I'm curious to know what people's view on the compatibility of feminism and Islam is? Not a trick question, I'm just curious really.

I've not really held much interest in politics until fairly recently, well not outside of the basic knowledge of the different UK parties. For the last few years though I've read a lot around identity politics and I try and observe a diverse range of views from the alt right through to third wave feminism etc.

I always had the impression when I was a kid that Sharia law was what extremist groups pushed for, but there seems to be a much less hostile view of it nowadays. I'm wondering whether I was previously uninformed, whether the public opinion has changed, or whether true Sharia law is in fact different from the picture painted by extremist groups?

It seems to be regarded as a bit of a touchy subject by many, but Islam is a religion not a race and I feel that we should be able to discuss it as openly as Christianity, obviously providing we're not gratuitously insulting the beliefs of its practitioners.

What got me thinking about this was the footage I watched the other day of the women's march where Lauren Southern was asking feminists "would you choose Islam or women's rights". I was going to create a thread then but forgot until I saw her name mentioned in another thread on here. She's a goady bitch for sure, a bit like Milo Yiannopoulos, but what struck me was that the majority of the feminists didn't seem to want to speak against Islam and some said that it wasn't incompatible with women's rights.

I always thought it was regarded as pretty backwards in that area tbh. I do plan to do some more reading of my own but I'm at work now and don't own a copy of the Quran so am limited in my ability to research for myself.

All religion is evil and was invented by men. Hence all the rules about women not doing various things to CONTROL the.

Not mentioned here FMG - UK citizens taking their girls back to the old country to have thei genitals cut off

UK citizens taking their young girls to be forcibly married to near relations in the old country

And an article in the Times today about the huge issue of sexual abuse by Muslims against girls in the U.K.

My late dad and I used to discuss which was the most evil religion, he thought R catholics, I know it is Islam - we agreed to disagree

All religions are inherently misogynistic. Islam is not special in this. It's just that it's a younger religion, so what is happening in Islam happened already with Christianity a few hundred years ago. I don't think you can really be a follower of any religion and be a feminist as well. That doesn't mean that there isn't sisterhood among Islamic women (there is) but that if you follow any religious doctrine to its obvious conclusion they all seem to have been invented with the purpose of oppressing women, and particularly female sexuality.
Sorry if that is offensive to anyone, but it's the way I see it.

@Personwithhorse
Which religion treats women the worst?

What I don’t understand is how the U.K. apparently is trying to push forward with ‘feminism’ and equal rights and yet I’ve seen adverts recently, praising the innovation of the hijab for work in construction for example in the U.K. how does that work?!
Women might think they are choosing to wear this attire but it’s the same as before when women would say they don’t wear short skirts and slut shame. They are effectively downing Muslim women that don’t wear them. Men think women should wear them. Girls are brains washed to wear them. Do these women really have a true genuine opinion? Or a brainwashed one from a young age.
I’ve heard things such as a Muslim woman is her husbands jewel and only he should see her. This is really going back to the days of Mohammed. I hope and pray the whole associates culture moves forward to modern times.

Wearing the hijab is proving you are being a good obedient woman and supporting your own oppression..
the child wanting to please the parent..
"Look daddy, am I doing it right now"
They are looking for approval

I'd agree that all religions are mysogynistic in nature. Not really that men want to get rid of women as such. At least not most (they do need someone to have sex with).

But religions stem from the society they are in, so, I'd more easily blame those societies than religion per se.

Most human societies are not very female friendly, regardless of religion.

Exactly the same as Christian women. Some are strong independant women some are subservient to men. Some work, some don't. Some wear modest dress, some don't. Some drink some don't. Some are confident, some are shy. Females are not defined by religion.

This is the video the OP references:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=PZHuFah0uds

Interesting topic . I've been wondering about this lately . I've been working with and become friends with a group of Muslim and Hindu women this year and have had my views changed . We chat about everyday homelife with family etc and I was suprised how assertive the Muslim women are about making sure their partners do their share at home and take the kids out etc. How they get to make plans in the relationship - what to spend family money on etc. Contrasted with the Hindu women who just seem to accept their husbands are the boss and will get up at 5am to cook his special food to take to work. I was suprised how opressed the Hindu women seem compared to the Muslims who seem more like feminists. I can't generalise for all Muslims/Hindus , just the ones I know and the fact that the Muslims are uni graduates with families, whilst the Hindus married at 15, 16 to have kids might be the factor - a class thing as an above poster mentioned.

Islam itself is an awful, misogynistic, violent religion.

That’s not to say that all Muslims are.

"goady bitch"

When I was a teenager / early twenties I used to stay in the house sometimes even though I'd run out of milk because at times I just couldn't face the constant, relentless hassle I got venturing out on the street. If a burka option had been available on these occasions I'd have been delighted to make use of it.

The male gaze is the problem for sure. I only think veils are unfeminist if the reason for wearing them is because other males don't want women subjected to it. If it's women who don't want to tolerate it, then why should they have to?

Try a little research Gacapa.

Sure. Happy to. Can you be more specific? Not sure what to search for.

As a Muslim myself, I recommend you read 'the ideal muslim' and 'the ideal muslimah'.

When making comparisons on religions it is imperative to examine the cultural platform you yourself are examining it from. I'm Christian it's written into the dna of the culture I have grown up in, most people in the country I live in, even if they are not Christian themselves are familiar enough understand the basics.

Most people could understand something that satirises Christianity as we have a common frame of reference with which to understand it. We can also to an extent see satires of Judaism as there is a common frame of reference and there is a longer history of cultural integration (although obviously not always without friction).

We haven't integrated anywhere nearly as well with Islamic culture, although it is still early days comparitively speaking, but it will smooth over as time goes on. Islam was at once stage at its inception one of the most progressive religions, but it is inescapable at least through a feminist lens that western culture has progressed beyond it.

It's also worth not conflating the religion with the culture. Arab and middle eastern culture is very seperate and distinct from Asian far eastern culture. If you compare Indonisia, which is a majority Muslim country has had a female head of state, very progressive (though still not 50/50) rates of female representation in parliament and around 50% of women in the workforce.

I'm not presenting Indonesia as some sort of feminist paradise as nowhere is, but it is demonstrative that Islam itself is not necessarily a barrier to women's participation and advancement and equality. In a sense I think the religion is a bit of a red herring, and there are elements of Arab/Middle Eastern culture that present specific barriers and challenges for women. However it is women from those cultures who are best placed to speak on those what any solutions might be.

We should however be all willing to take steps to break bread with our muslim friends and recognise that many Muslims are as western as we are in thought and philosophy and listen to their stories.

There are however fringes of many religions that have no tolerance for anyone else, and whilst we can all usually spot the Christian or Jewish one's as we have a cultural frame of reference with which to identify them I would confess I wouldn't always be able to identify the Muslim extremists, but the fault lies with my own lack of cultural literacy with Islam itself. The fault most definately does not lie with normal Muslim men and women who are just making their own way through the world.