Personal pronouns

[Sabistick]

Sorry if this has already been answered.
Why are we saying , she/her to trans identifying men, to be polite?
In the rules of grammar, is it the person using the word that gets to choose, based on what they see, or is it the person being described ,who gets to say?
I didnt really study grammar as a kid (child of the 60s here), so any guidance would be good.

[grannytomine]

I suppose it is like everyone else, some nice men and some nasty, some nice women some nasty, some nice trans people some nasty.

[RedToothBrush]

It should come down to integrity and mutual respect.

The power of language comes down to the integrity with which it is used. It can be abused and used for manipulation.

If language is being used in this way, yes absolutely you should retain the right not to be polite, because respect isn't being shown to you in return.

For example:
The abundant use of the word ‘transphobe’ is not because people are being abusive but to silence. Using it in this way, also demeans it and renders it almost meaningless. It is a blanket term to throw in the face of criticism, rather than an expression of harm. It is about controlling others not about how oppression harms. It is a declaration of power, not the cry of a victim. ‘Hate speech’ is not voicing concerns for your own protected characteristic.

Equally you can not complain of abuse from mis-gendering and wrong use of pronouns if you do not respect how many women find some trans terms offensive and why this removes power from them. To do so destroys your integrity. If the right to self identify extents to how others label you, then women retain the right to be offended as refuse to be referred to as ‘cis’. Its use being imposed without consent, is to try and establish dominance.

Why should I use words to appease someone else, if I feel the language I am being compelled to use, is some how authoritarian and trying to control me, my beliefs and my thought?

[exWifebeginsat40]

sleighbells that’s none of your fucking business.

so much for solidarity, eh? and on a feminism board, no less.

fucking hell.

[RedToothBrush]

Exwife, there is a conflict between wanting to defend and protect your loved one and support them, but I'm sorry but being trans is not purely personal.

It does affect the identity and ability to self identify for others. And can be psychologically damaging to others as well as the person concerned
even if it's handled well. Simply validating them as trans isn't necessarily the solution. They may need validation about who they are that isn't anything to do with whether they are male or female.

Frankly, you say you want to debate here, yet the second you are asked a question you fire back ultra defensive and aggressive message that it's not their business. Why is that?

The reason is because you are scared. You don't want to hear the opposite yourself because it might make you question whether you are doing the right thing, cos you aren't sure. You don't want any possible hint of doubt to creep in. The thought of that isnt something you can face up to. It's easier to go along with it than challenge it and confront it.

The argument you've been given fits, and who are you to question it. You are hostage to the fear that your child might be hurt if you don't go along with it. And you don't want to lose your child.

It's fucking with your mind and you don't want to admit it. You, yourself suffer in your own personal silence. You are hurting and can not say it.

Yeah feminism is all about telling others what to do and how to think and suppressing your own feelings.

Critical thought poses a threat of bursting the bubble of it all. You know that your child will never totally be the thing they want to be and it kills you and you can't stop the hurt. To them or to you.

Shouting at others for having the freedom to think in a different way, won't change any of it though. They are not anti feminist nor 'traitors'.

[RogueBiscuit]

4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

[RedToothBrush]

Sorry that post by exwife REALLY pissed me off. It's the emotional blackmail and suggestion that feminism is one thing and that no one else could possibly understand.

It's not that black and white. If only it was.

If only these 'so called feminists would just shut up and drop being critical my child would be better off.'

It's a delusion that passes 'blame' onto someone for something that can ultimately never be 100% 'right'. Its a 'Someone must be responsible for my child's pain' type mentality.

[Ereshkigal]

It's a delusion that passes 'blame' onto someone for something that can ultimately never be 100% 'right'. Its a 'Someone must be responsible for my child's pain' type mentality.

YY. You see it a lot from family members and friends of transgender people and transgender people themselves. "If only people would just accept me/my relative I or they would be happy. You're a bad person for not putting them first". It's not true that everything in their lives would be perfect if people more convincingly pretended they thought they were the opposite sex, or didn't have a sex. It's just easier to believe that is all that's stopping them being happy.

They don't do this to men, generally, because they know many men wouldn't accept a prohibition on their speech due to someone else's feelings. But women, especially feminists they feel they can guilt trip and emotionally blackmail.

[Ereshkigal]

And if you look at the original post that ExWife is being so holier than thou about, she literally was crowing about women "shitting their pants" and complying with pronouns they don't believe in. Why use "shit your pants" if it isn't about fear and control?

[RedToothBrush]

I learnt myself the hard way.

Sitting thousands of miles away from home someone said to me that it doesn't matter what you do or how far you run you can never escape yourself and find the peace you are looking for. Until you allow yourself to accept things for what they are, you will never find that inner peace.

Deep down a liar, always knows the truth, because they have to in order to tell the lie. You can not lie to yourself. You can only try and suppress what you ultimately know to be truth but do not wish to be.

This is the struggle that is going on. The desire to suppress and to impose that suppression on others so that your own truth does not have to be confronted head on.

If you choose to live as trans that's fine by me but if you don't tackle this cold hard reality then it festers and corrupts.

Transwomen are women is all about the denial of biology and the refusal to acknowledge this gap. it's asking others to make a mental leap that you aren't prepared to do. It won't work. It merely inflicts pain on others instead.

[Ereshkigal]

Sitting thousands of miles away from home someone said to me that it doesn't matter what you do or how far you run you can never escape yourself and find the peace you are looking for. Until you allow yourself to accept things for what they are, you will never find that inner peace.

Yes, I have travelled a lot, and it's made me have the same realisation.

[wrappedupinmyselflikeaspool]

Red tooth brush, what an interesting post. I come from a really disfunctional family, full of people who can’t be honest with either themselves or others. For at least one person this has led to full psychosis/delusions. Facing up to cold hard truths is something that’s helped me thrive.

What I wonder though, thinking about your analysis - is the honesty you describe the trait that has helped Miranda Yardley to be both trans and full of reason and good humour? I follow her on twitter and Facebook and read her articles in the morning star and she is capable of reconciling her dysphoria AND recognising the real world situation of women. She can step back, knowing that women might not want her in their spaces and accepting that limitation but knowing that she is better off presenting in the way she does. No problems with admitting male biology either. We need more people like her.

[sleighbellend]

So much for solidarity with an ideology that reduces womanhood to a stereotype, denies the realities of women (actual ones’) lives and biology, encourages gnc to sterilise themselves and take hormone blockers with some pretty horrendous effects, and places fetishistic men at the centre of the movement and calls for the silencing (as well as often rape and murder) of any woman who disagrees?

No, you’re alright thanks.

[MentholBreeze]

Sitting thousands of miles away from home someone said to me that it doesn't matter what you do or how far you run you can never escape yourself and find the peace you are looking for. Until you allow yourself to accept things for what they are, you will never find that inner peace.

This. I was desperately unhappy as an older teenager. I'm short and fat (always have been) and 'knew' that no-one would ever want me for me, I could look in the mirror and see what I felt I should be, but I could never get there. I knew I wasn't 'right' that I didn't deserve to show any flesh (not even a v-neck!) or wear tight clothes, or buy tampons. It wasn't until I was about 25 I grew into myself, took time out and just let myself be, came to terms with what I couldn't change, what my strengths were, and that I was worth something, worth a lot.

No amount of parents, or teachers (I didn't really have friends - and a couple of boyfriends when I got older, who, looking back, were abusive - the second of which is what made me take the time out from men and myself in my mid-20s which healed me) telling me things made any difference. I knew I was worthless, as I was, but that something would happen in the future that would change that and I would transform like a butterfly

[RedToothBrush]

Wrapped it's about integrity.

Yardley has respect because she realised that women have to earn it whereas men expect it. She understands it's about trust and give and take. Yardley recognises and respects the problems women face and promotes them. Yardley does not make it about her being trans first. Indeed to 'live like a woman' completely you need to put that aside most of the time but have the awareness of when it is relevant. If you want to be a woman you have to look through the lens of being a woman and how they view trans.

By contrast Madigan is still looking through the lens of being trans at being a woman.

It's about the capacity to empathise and step back from your own personal situation and see it from the outside.

It's not about 'people like me'. It's about thinking about women of all different types including women not like you and how you have had very different experiences and how you can appreciate those different experiences with sensitivity and respect.

There is common ground, but you have to appreciate the existence of difference to work on common interest and ensure you aren't merely going to trample over and deny the problems others face.

[MentholBreeze]

It's about the capacity to empathise and step back from your own personal situation and see it from the outside.

I think there's a big dollop of realising that there are things that you do for you, and things that you do that you expect a reaction from other people for. (I can't get the words right to explain it).

I think the more that you do for yourself, the happier you will be.

Eg. I have a red cardigan that I love, that I wear for me, DP hates it, other people feel other ways about it, but I love it, so I wear it.

In the past, I wore things for other people's approval - fashion basically - wanting people to look at me and think good things about me because of my clothing choices. Part of growing up was figuring out that their opinions didn't have to affect me.

[SparklyUnicornTractors]

Miranda Yardley's awareness of the wider picture, her ability to see situations from multiple points of view and understand why people think as they do, and her clear respect for other people underpin everything she writes.

It's the arrogance and total lack of respect that comes from the TRA lobby and the not only complete lack of awareness of anyone and anything but themselves, but the angry, abusive and instant bellows that biological women don't matter, their issues are of no interest to anyone and what the fuck do they think they're doing not instantly prioritising and bowing down to whatever they're told.

And y y y to what Red says, about the mental leap that this demand of compliance is based on. People with dysphoria are genuinely struggling with their reality, I have every sympathy but feel there should be a wide range of options and supports that look at the whole person as well as transitioning with medical and surgical options as a last resort instead of the first. However the TRA agenda simply demands with no dysphoria necessary, 'I am adjusting my personal reality because I want to. Therefore I demand you immediately completely re write your reality and lives to accomodate me, or else.'

It's emotionally about three years old and goes with drumming of heels and screaming. Cutted up pear territory. Having spent years working with young children I often look at the 'die in a fire!' and 'cis scum' and mentally translate it to a three year old screaming 'you're a poopoo head!'

[Sabistick]

When I started this query/thread, it was because i wanted to know who owns he/she ,in reality. i get that people have conflated sex with
self created appearance{gender} , and it seemed to work ,but that now its become a problem.

Its this idea that assumed appearence trumps sex.

People talk about misgendering as a hateful crime, and seem to accept this, in spite of themselves.
isnt it time to link sex to personal pronouns rather than self identity?<br /> <br /> I understand language changes over time, but if we dont use the correct terms with confidence, we are making ourselves complicit in our own disappearance.

[grannytomine]

But as I said earlier what if you are sure someone is male/female when in fact you are wrong? Do we need some sort of medical certificate to prove it to you?

I worked with a young man, he was straight and not trans, but he was slight build, attractive and if he was in say t shirt and jeans or a hoodie people just assumed he was female and would use female pronouns. Not his fault that he wasn't a stereotypical male to look at. It isn't always easy to know someone's sex.

[cromeyellow0]

MentholBreeze: something would happen in the future that would change that and I would transform like a butterfly

That captures exactly the power of trans, why it is so immensely appealing to young people. If you don't like the way you look, if you find it hard to make friends, if you aren't attracting sexual partners, then trans gives you a diagnosis and a remedy. Estrogen / testosterone is a magical elixir that will turn you from ugly duckling to beautiful swan.

It works in the short term (you certainly gain a supportive community of friends and allies), but you are then trapped in an identity which is false. Even your wokest allies who chant "transwomen are women" don't actually think you're a woman. You are doomed to fail, and this subconscious realisation drives the anger of TIMs, rage against feminists and even disgust for (authentic) female bodies.

[Ereshkigal]

Even your wokest allies who chant "transwomen are women" don't actually think you're a woman. You are doomed to fail, and this subconscious realisation drives the anger of TIMs, rage against feminists and even disgust for (authentic) female bodies.

This is exactly true.

[RogueBiscuit]

Even your wokest allies who chant "transwomen are women" don't actually think you're a woman.

When I started looking into this I visited lots of trans sites including dating sites. The majority of them state No transwomen cis women only!!
Who'd have thought it, transphobia from transwomen!

[BatShite]

When I started looking into this I visited lots of trans sites including dating sites. The majority of them state No transwomen cis women only!!
Who'd have thought it, transphobia from transwomen!

Well obviously, as they know that transwomen are not women too.

All the 'lesbian transwomen' should start shagging each other really instead of persuing actual lesbians. Given its transphobic to reject someone on the basis of their sex as its whats in their head that counts.

[DryHeave]

I don’t like cis because it’s a statement about the status of my genitals and how they’ve been all my life above anything else - a topic that trans people don’t like to discuss either.