Personal pronouns

[Sabistick]

Sorry if this has already been answered.

Why are we saying , she/her to trans identifying men, to be polite?

In the rules of grammar, is it the person using the word that gets to choose, based on what they see, or is it the person being described ,who gets to say?
I didnt really study grammar as a kid (child of the 60s here), so any guidance would be good.

I don't think I've ever really been in the situation but if I were confronted by a trans person I would attempt to use the pronoun they were trying to present.

Not because of any kind of gesture of kindness on my part, but merely because it makes my life easier in that moment.

I suppose I'm saying there's no need to take matters to the extreme. If we are uncomfortable that somebody we identify as a man wants to be called a woman I think it's ok to an extent until as others have said, the gesture becomes mandatory.

i think we can all stop pretending that you don’t understand hyperbole and intent and instead are shouting about me wanting women to shit themselves.

i used this vernacular to convey my assertion that none of you would speak to a transgender person face to face the way you do here. i don’t think NO WOMEN SHOULD LITERALLY SHIT THEMSELVES BECAUSE A MAN WANTS THEM TO is a very robust argument to the contrary.

fucking hell.

You appear to approve of abusive behaviour.

Don't patronise me, I've been gaslighted in an abusive relationship and this feels exactly the fucking same. What you are doing is sneering at that. Sneering at women who feel coerced into not expressing themselves and forced to lie. Fucking hell indeed.

exWife, regardless of the language you use your meaning is very clear. You think none of us would make a fuss about using wrong pronouns in the face of a transgender person insisting on them. And you are probably right, transgender activists can be very threatening, and women are brought up to comply with threatening people. This isn't cowardice, it's self preservation. Also it's pretty easy to avoid using a pronoun at all when talking directly to someone

@norahnamechange , that's exactly how I feel. Whenever I read whatever hateful nonsense the transactivists have come out with and the red mist descends, I have to remind myself that if you only listen to the outliers of any group, you'd get a pretty warped idea of what that group is about.

I don't really understand why a trans person would be so upset by the pronoun being used incorrectly, after all they are going through a process and it must be perfectly normal that some people are going to be confused and stump for the wrong pronoun.

eresh i’m sorry you were in an abusive relationship. of course that influences your reaction to my words.

but, you see, my reaction to the unpleasant words used here against transgender people is influenced by my child being non-binary. i defend their right to be who they are until my last breath.

i’m sure that can be conceded, at least?

and i am talking about a transgender person you might happen across in the normal course of your life, not someone you might encounter at a rally or demo. i get that bigotry can go both ways.

i still maintain that the deliberate misgendering, flat refusal to acknowledge someone’s personal pronouns and assertion that transgender women are overwhelmingly dangerous is not a good use of a feminist board. erosion of women’s rights when it has taken so much work by so many determined people to attain those rights is a travesty and a tragedy. i do understand that, believe it or not.

and if you want to play bad relationship top trumps you better bring your A game. you have no idea what my life has been like. i am not going to stop trying to make my child’s life a safe and happy one.

i’m out. there is no debate to be had here.

i’m out. there is no debate to be had here.

I agree. If you are the parent of a treads child your conflict is profound.

The separation that needs to take place is that of the transactivists bonkers ideology, and the parent of a child who is gender confused.

The sticking point for me, is you would not have the latter without the former.

I am attacking the disease, not the symptom.

*trans not treads.

No, i don't agree with you ex.

But you just happily called them 'Grandmother' - because in English, that is the word for a person who is your parent's mother - there's no point being offended if it's factually accurate, and a normal, non-insulting word. But I wouldn't call any one of them grandmother or granny if they want to be called nana or grandma. It doesn't matter if there is a point to being offended or not because in fact they do get offended. I would think it rude to deliberately call them something that would offended them. I get offended if someone calls me nanny, I'm not a goat but I know women who will tell you that is what they like being called.

Ex, how exactly does your non-binary child differ from a bog standard gender non-conforming child of the same sex?

i used this vernacular to convey my assertion that none of you would speak to a transgender person face to face the way you do here.

If it was your child? And it would hurt them? Sure I’d use the pronouns they preferred.

If they were respectful and didn’t make a meal out of it.

But believe me, a man identifying as a woman and was milking it would absolutely get the pronouns I need to make him understand I know he’s a man.

And the only reason he wouldn’t is if I perceived a threat.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

and if you want to play bad relationship top trumps you better bring your A game. you have no idea what my life has been like

How pathetic and puerile. I was explaining how I felt you were approving of deeply emotionally abusive behaviour such as victims of domestic abuse frequently experience, not playing "top trumps".

If they were respectful and didn’t make a meal out of it.

I don't think it's possible to do this respectfully. The whole thing, to me, is like black face.

I agree.

I use pronouns when speaking in real life to trans people. I see it as similar to using someones chosen name rather than their 'real' name. I don't see the point in upsetting someone unnecessarily when its easily avoided. However, none of the trans people I know are the kinds to be having shitfits about someone getting their pronouns wrong anyway. I may feel differently if I knew one of the twitter narcisists in real life..

I refuse to do so online 'en masse' out of principle mainly. Though probably out of habit I would use 'she' pronouns if talking about my family member who is trans.

And wow there have been some nasty posts on this thread. Its funny, how feminists are the ones accused of being horrible and abusive, when its so often 'the other side' who are the nasty ones. Infact, I have only ever seen actual transphobia posted on this site once, and it was deleted very quickly and near everyone on the thread posted that it was unnecesary.

I had a horrible experience last week with a casual male friend. He arrived at our weekly hobby in women's sexy clothing. I genuinely like him so chatted to him as normal and didn't mention it. I was hoping he was either just wearing a dress or, he was one of the harmless tims who just want to get on.

No such luck. Although he didn't say anything wrong his body language was totally off. He was almost doing a courtesy as he was talking, twirling his hair, and he had combed his hair over his eyes so he was peeking out behind it seductively. As awful as it sounds, I felt he was acting like a seductive very young child. It's hard to describe, but it was dirty. And he knew it.

It made me incredibly uncomfortable and by the time I got home I was furious and feeling violated. There is no way he will get the opportunity to do that to me ever again. I won't ever call him her or she. I won't ever share a bathroom with him and if the choices are be violated or be called a terf I'll choose the latter.

That sound grim rogue. I am sympathetic to anyone with a genuine disorder but I am starting to wonder what proportion of TIMs are actually basically co-opting other people into taking part in a sexual fantasy?

I am happy to use pronouns chosen by a person.
In the way that I will use your chosen name.

But I won't call you a woman if you born a man or vice versa. You are a trans man/woman.

i defend their right to be who they are until my last breath.

Great. I fully support that, and I'd defend that for any trans person. Grab the posters and thermoses, I'll come march with you. Everyone should have the right to be who they are. However someone's right to be who they are does not trump anyone else's right to be who they are. Where I start getting annoyed is where whatever my opinions, my truth and my reality, I am expected to put the other person first however they may behave, and extend a whole lot of courtesy and support that is not reciprocal. I support anyone's right to wave their fist around, but that right ends at my nose.

I happily use the pronouns of choice for my FtM friend, although sadly it's apparent if you love him that trans has been a refuge from a childhood of abuse and horrible mental illness. I'm currently gritting my teeth and watching him wreck his body with testosterone and dreading the day he realises - and sadly he will - that this hasn't been the magic wand he so hopes it will. At gut level he is a very unhappy woman, not a man.

I will gladly use chosen pronouns on meeting people because many will be people who just want to get on with their lives and it's a case of mutual courtesy, it's part of respecting them as a person. Most of those people will continue to be part of a mutually respectful relationship and that's fine. However my patience for a friend's child who posted a 15 minute video on facebook for all of us on their chosen pronouns (after 15 minutes of startlingly self absorbed lecturing the verdict was that it changed from day to day and we need to ask every time and go along with today's decision) is now very short. I just don't have the time on a day to day basis to indulge someone who intends to make themselves that hard work for others. I would be very happy to follow a request about pronouns from a colleague on first beginning work from them or if it was a rare change of choice, but would not be ok with a 15 minute block at the beginning of every meeting to discuss their pronouns and if they'd changed since last time.

Up until very recently I felt even with MfT TRAs who are of the autogynephile type of transgender, use what bits of the agenda suit them in the moment (which I feel is extremely exploitative of people with rapid onset or early gender dysphoria) and issue rape and death threats to women as thoughtlessly as they say hello and goodbye, and whose expression of their beliefs is openly about enforcing compliance, erasure of women and male entitlement, that it was still important to be polite and civilised in discussing these issues. My mind has changed on that. I won't enable this, I won't tolerate this. As soon as someone unleashes this disrespect and contempt at me, the social contract is broken and I won't be a slave to it and embrace an obediently subservient role to it. If someone was behaving this rudely and badly face to face and I was dealing with a six foot plus individual who was going to demand I performed validation services despite their behaviour, or 'send me home in an ambulance' then I'd need my brains tested to inform them that their plan today announced on facebook to fuck up a terf had come true. Instead I would get the fuck out of dodge the same way I would get away from a drunk in a pub intent on starting a fight. It would not be in any way a gesture of respect.

It is a courtesy and gesture of respect to use someone's pronouns of choice when part of every day interaction with someone inside the normal social contract. However in situations where it's pushed and enforced by threat by a man in the name of making women subordinate it becomes being forced to speak a lie, and I am very uncomfortable with that.

However in situations where it's pushed and enforced by threat by a man in the name of making women subordinate it becomes being forced to speak a lie, and I am very uncomfortable with that.

Brilliant post SparklyUnicornTractors

That’s the problem with the whole issue. You are talking about people who are transitioning for a myriad of different reasons. Some you can be courteous to. Others? Nah mate.

The misogynists do not get to co-opt gender dysphoria to make you bow to their agenda.