What happens when the Scouts outsources its policy writing to Mermaids?

[pisacake]

It's as mad as you'd expect.

members.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/4228/gender-identity-supporting-young-people?cat=377,378&moduleID=10

"Gender identity issues do not just affect adults; children even as young as 2 years old can be diagnosed with ‘gender dysphoria’ or ‘gender identity disorder’."

Start em young!

"The young person has a right to be treated as their true gender irrespective of what stage they are at. "

where true gender presumably means their 'trans' gender, because nobody ever ever changes their mind, right?

Disabled toilets are a no-go, sorry they are trans toilets now :

"refer to and label toilets appropriately (e.g. ‘unisex/accessible toilets’ rather than ‘disabled’)"

Binding your breasts is completely normal and harmless

"Young people who are developing breasts may strap down their chest, to make it less obvious. This is called ‘binding’ and it is important to respect the young person’s decision to do this."

"If you have young people who are binding their chests, monitor them carefully during particularly physical activities (such as rock climbing) and hot temperatures. There is a chance that the binding could cause discomfort or even impair breathing, and it may be necessary to subtly offer more breaks."

Wonder what the protocol is if you collapse because you can't fucking breathe? Is it transphobic to remove the binder?

Girls and boys toilets also transphobic

"Wherever possible, select a venue that has unisex toilet facilities "

Always prioritise the feelings of the trans person above everyone else.
"There is no rule in Scouting stating that young people must be split by gender for sleeping arrangements. "
"Sharing with other young people of their true gender (or their biological sex if they would prefer), either in large or small tents with their trusted friends."

members.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/4227

"What causes it?
The most recent scientific research suggests that it is strongly associated with the development of the brain in the womb."

Hmm, do the Scouts have a biology badge?

members.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/4229

"People who are transgender have a right to be treated as their acquired gender, regardless of what (if any) medical or legal steps they have taken. "

WRONG. They have a right not to be discriminated against, except where lawful.

"You do not need to ask for proof for their records to be altered (e.g. to show their Gender Recognition Certificate).
"

Yeah who needs to bother with silly paperwork, it's not like record keeping is important or anything, amirite?

But it's separated by sex not be set at some point they have to face up to the and throwing kids under the bus to accommodate this gender stuff is not on.

Use correct toilets

Not discriminatory
Girls dont wanna change tampons with boys

Boys wanna use urinals in peace without girls.

Sex not gender

Verysadpants

I understand that a child who passes may not want to be exposed by using the facilities of their sex.

I truly do.

But once you have stripped everything away, it comes down to a conflict of rights. And whose rights take precedence.

Allowing someone of the opposite sex to share facilities means that you are accommodating one person at the expense of all the others.

Also the trajectory that transgenderism is on means that children are transitioning for reasons that are not credible (I’m not suggesting your child is one of them).

So however comforting it might be for children with gender dysphoria for people to accommodate them, as the disorder is entirely subjective, it’s impossible to determine authenticity with any degree of accuracy.

Even if a child is entirely genuine, the girls in that facility still have rights. They still may be discomfited.

The child in question is going to grow into an adult and their biology is absolutely going to count, at some point. You can’t force the entire population to act against their own interests for the sake of a minority. They will encounter opposition to their belief.

Far better to accept transgenderism as a status in its own right. Instead of pretending you can swap sex. Opposition will melt away.

I both sympathise with Sadpants and agree with Datun.

Assuming that transgender people have an innate status and will always be with us, we have to stop pretending that 'transgirls are just girls' and 'transmen are just men' with all the attendant angst about passing or being outed. That doesn't sound psychologically healthy at all, more like being permanently on high alert in case one is revealed as an impostor.

My (autistic) child has always felt the strain of having to mask and act and be careful in public, and I think most of us can recognise the worry of Impostor Syndrome, so I can't imagine how much stress it must cause in a child to have to conceal one's sex in order to live as one's 'gender'.

I understand that girls don't want to tampon with a boy in the next cubicle. But ...if my transboy has to go to the ladies, that is what they feel like they are doing. Is it worse being in a toilet with an apparent girl with male anatomy or an apparent boy with female anatomy? Mine has no desire to offend anyone and it would be great for him if toilets were all singles with 'toilet' on them. But in the binary world it's not like that. You have to declare a side to pee. Using the disabled ones, we've discovered, does not go down well. It is clash of rights I guess - so is it worse to be a woman or girl who may have a trans person in the next cubicle, or is it worse to be a trans person who can never go to the toilet of their self identified gender, with the outing potential that has?

I'd say the worst part tbh is probably not being prepared by those supporting them that not everyone will share their world and be prepared to put themselves out for something that just isn't true.

They will.encounter this and woth people who don't know them.

Instead of trying to weigh up conflicts of rights perhaps prepare the children for the fact that not everyone all the time will want or feel they can indulge a fantasy for other people. That there are limits.

Or feel for anyone going through these difficulties I really do but it really isn't fare to throw kids under a bus for one person who needs to face up to reality.

Sorry that sounded harsher than intended ondont mean that nastily at all..

As I said I sympathise a great deal of must be so hard.

I just meant that sooner or later biology matters and it can't be kept up it just can't.

Sex cannot be changed and that's what toilets etc are separated by

Like a previous poster who can quite easily see both sides, I can sympathise with Verysadpants, but agree with Gileswithachainsaw.

It’s a fact of reality that children who transition are absolutely going to encounter opposition.

And like everything a parent has to do, you have to prepare them for reality. Not the cocoon that, a lot of the time, we would like to protect them with.

Who hasn’t had that conflict where we want to remove obstacles for our children, and yet at the same time, we have to grit our teeth and force them to do something they don’t want to do?

You have my utmost sympathy sadpants. I want to drive a stake through the heart of the ideology so children such as yours are not conflicted.

And that you are not conflicted.

And that women are not being targeted!

To me, the least damaging and most civil solution is to create a third space. A space that becomes commonplace. For trans-people, non-binary people, or people who just don’t care one way or the other.

So there is no ‘outing’ involved.

So that women’s spaces are protected. And only the women who want or need that protection use them.

It would mean your child does not feel exposed. It would mean that women are protected.

The only people who would not gain from it are those who actively want to dismantle women’s boundaries.

And I think we can all agree that they can fuck off.

Someone might glance twice at your transboy in the Ladies. But once they've assessed the generally

Lance if he looks like a boy if women/ girls feel uncomfortable with that they will feel uncomfortable with him. Even if it wasn't a problem for him to be trans, you still wouldn't know he was trans and not a biological male sneaking in necessarily.

I'm none too worried about a young boy (if behaving himself, natch) in the Ladies.

Post-puberty, I think you can generally tell; we're good at pattern recognition.

None of the transboys/transmen I know well would really pass as adult men, though, so maybe I'm extrapolating. You might at a pinch mistake the oldest (mid-twenties) for a young teenage boy. Mostly you'd assume that they were non-conforming or lesbian women.

Is your child very tall and broad, though, or bearded? If so, yes, that might give girls and women more concern, and it might be better to use the men's unless they feel threatened there.

The scout association has always allowed mixed sex sleeping, that bit is nothing new. Leaders have to make sure everyone is happy with who they are sharing with that is all.

Um, no they don't, I'm not sure where you've got that idea from.

Erm, 25 years experience as a scout leader. The rules say that separate accommodation should generally be provided. Separate toilets and changing facilities must be provided.

There are many occasions where mixed sex sleeping can and does take place. On an overnight hike where a girl in a tent on here own is not a sensible option. Where 3 boys and 2 girls are a patrol at a camp and they want to share a tent. Where a beaver sleepover is happening and there is a large hall and a leaders room then all the children will sleep in the hall and the leaders in the leaders room. Parents are made aware that this is what will be happening for the under 16's