Boys and their mothers

[Ava6]

I don't have a brother so I've never observed this in action. I sincerely wonder: how early do boys start understanding that they were born into the high caste of humans while their mothers belong to the low one? How do they reconcile this with being totally dependent on an 'inferior being' and her being the most important person in their world for a long time?

I know that this starts happening really young in the really partriarchal environments. But what about the secular 1st World one?

Oh dear, that's really badly written - I've only just got up and had a late night.

"I do think that ever viewing my sons as "members of the oppressive class" would have been damaging to that determination, though."

Lass- care to comment on this interpretation of my post?

It's not an interpretation of your post Bert. It's a quote from fi's. Which is what my earlier post (that you quoted) was originally in response to.

Oh, sorry. You started by quoting me so I assumed. A daft thing to do.

"So yes, I did-and do- think carefully about how I raise my son in a misogynist culture.

And that's how you decided not to raise a misogynist? "

Can you explain this a bit more, please?

Not really. They way you always do this tangential oakum picking thing is quite dull TBH.

Sorry. I just didn't understand what you meant--and I can't answer what I don't understand!

In any case, saskia is quite right about this OP.

Bertrand, Battle is not interpreting your post. She is referring back to this post.

I think it’s an interesting issue and something I think about a lot with my own young sons. More in the sense of ‘how do I deal with having birthed a member of the oppressive class’?

And you are dodging responding to Pasta's made up quote.

"And you are dodging responding to Pasta's made up quote."

Not sure why it's my responsibility to respond- I was just commenting that in my experience making things like this up is a trade part of the anti feminist!

But I will say that it is very common for people to generalize from the particular to the general when it comes to feminism. And most other types of -ism "I have never experienced discrimination in the work place-ergo discrimination in the workplace doesn't happen" For example.

And I wouldn't have phrased the point the way the OP did. But i really think there is a discussion to be had about how we raise our boys. I find the attitudes and opinions of some of my son's friends deeply worrying. It is depressing that, while legally things have improved massively since I was a young woman, attitudinally (is that a word? It looks odd) things seem to have stayed the same-and in some ways even gone backwards.

In cases where their dad is on the scene, i assume his treatment of their mum (and attitude towards wifework etc) will be crucial in determining their expectations while they are little.

My DP & I try quite hard to notice when we might be giving our dc the wrong messages it's been enlightening for both of us

What we'll do when they're bigger and getting misogynist messages from every direction I don't know

Not sure why it's my responsibility to respond- I was just commenting that in my experience making things like this up is a trade part of the anti feminist!

It wasn't until you required me to respond to Battle's post - which you incorrectly identified as a false interpretation of what you had said.

My son worships me. There's nothing his mum can't do.

Mine too - they know my job, but what dad's job is is much more nebulous for instance. Even though I'm the most likely to be the one telling them off/enforcing discipline, I'm also the best, the one that they want hugs from, the one that given the chance they'd spend every waking and sleeping moment lounged up against. They're only 7 and 4 yet, but I would hope that the way DP and I raise them means that they'll grow up to be good, open-minded men, with a minimum of bigotry.

I think Genghis's explanation is the one that rings true with me - that it's how other people treat their mother - especially their father - that's going to have the biggest effect on turning loving children into misogynists (or feminists).

"It wasn't until you required me to respond to Battle's post - which you incorrectly identified as a false interpretation of what you had said."

You must have missed that I immediately acknowledged my mistake and apologised....

Another "vote" for the importance of modelling equal, respectful and loving relationships. I think this is particularly important when their is what appears to be a power inbalance (not exactly what I mean, but can't think of different words). Where one parent earns a lot more than the other, for example. Or works much longer hours....Acknowledging that people contribute in equal but different ways.

I''ve had little boys saying how rubbish girls are when I'm around. One time, when I challenged them with "your mum is a girl" (nicely - he was only about 7!) he got really confused. It came from a program on the telly with male and female characters and
he had said he knew everything about all of them, turned out he only meant the male ones.
I've also heard stories from my kids at school - just minor stuff around taking up all the space in the playground, dominating the classroom with mucking around / being noisy, that sort of stuff.
I mean there is - at a general overall level - an issue isn't there. I think it is quite well known so would be surprised if anyone disputed it.

Then when older you get stuff like the girl guides report here

So I think it is difficult when it's personal, obviously we all think our own kids are fab - and the probably are ! - but, looking at society and all the stuff around harassment and all the stuff that most of us will have experienced - these men are all coming from somewhere, they are all someone's son.

Looking at the way things are different in different countries in terms of levels of harassment etc, it is clear that societal and probably family values make a difference, otherwise there would be no difference in prevalence in different countries.

I'm not going to comment about what individuals can do - I don't think that's the right approach as it understandably upsets/annoys people and if they are listening they're probably doing it already.

For me changes in society across the board in attitudes to women, what they are "for", how they can be treated, etc is the way forward which is your basic fundamental feminism IMO so we are all good

Oh and that weird thing of older boys / young men watching porn together and bonding over it - or just sharing extreme images of women - that can't do much for the psyche either. That went on a lot when I was young, I'd be surprised if it has stopped. Remember all the young men sharing that 2 girls 1 cup thing (I never watched it) - the subjects of these humiliating / gross / painful vids are always women IME. I don't know if gay men do this over similar clips of men. Not so much I suspect as part of the point seems to be seeing women as "other" and humiliating them etc.

I mean loads of men like upsetting women just day to day don't they in little ways. A significant minority but there are enough of them that I'd say most women have experienced it.

Gone off track a bit sorry.

After many years here I'm giving my first ever .

What an odd post? I have 2 boys and they think nothing of the sort. They know I can do anything and come to me rather than there dad.

" and come to me rather than there dad."

Why do you think that is?

Mmmm, I am a lone parent, left an abusive relationship, have a DS with additional needs who has previously engaged in quite aggressive externalising behaviours and can be quite demanding.

I really wish I could dismiss the concerns in the OP, but I am having to work really hard on teaching expressing emotions and anxiety with DS, not him just lashing out; understanding that gender roles are not fixed etc, helping him with clear routines that he feels secure, teaching him to respect personal space, turn taking, that I won’t do everything (although some times he does need me to help more than another child his age) etc. I don’t know if this is really to do with being male, though, or additional needs and circumstances.

At the same time, he sees me working, running a house, taking the car to the garage, etc., so I don’t know what he will grow up to think.

From personal experience i haven't encountered the attitude from my family members

With the exception of FIL who is a twat...so that explains it, and to be fair he has a similar attitude to all the other members of his family

But i get the distinct impression that the females in his family dont count

I think there has been research relating to the way people interact with newborns. Starting at birth really.

ava when my D'S was about 8 one day he told me that men were just better than women. When I asked him why/for examples he tried (because men are in charge of everything/do good sports) and eventually (probably because I was getting more aerated) said "oh don't worry mummy, you won't get it."

My son has been bought up in a very feminist family, equal parenting etc and still thinks "men are just better".

I think they actually disconnect their own mothers from this in their thoughts because that's their mum and she is different.

And I think that disassociation of tgeir mother from the class of "women" continues later in life and is why men are able to treat women badly, why so many men don't get feminism til they have a daughter etc.

I don't know what we can do as parents because so much of this message is absorbed from what boys observe around them rather than what they are told. I try to talk to my son about stuff and as he is getting older he does see and comment on sexist stuff and we discuss it. Hopefully that's enough

This is my first foray into Feminism Chat but - Wanted to comment on this

Bertrand - Another "vote" for the importance of modelling equal, respectful and loving relationships. I think this is particularly important when their is what appears to be a power inbalance (not exactly what I mean, but can't think of different words). Where one parent earns a lot more than the other, for example. Or works much longer hours....Acknowledging that people contribute in equal but different ways.

This - just typed out a post and backed out nervously - but this. I am hopeful my son gets it - I think he does.