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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Question about equality

85 replies

wnsdkfl · 29/11/2017 21:19

For a long time, me and my friend used to discuss about the women's rights for a long time. Being the devil's advocate, I would try to prolong the talk for arguments' sake. But then, it slowly developed into a solid argument (in my opinion). Now I am curious what you all think about my thoughts. If you're willing, can we start a civil discussion?

There are many problems that females face, and there are many problems that males face. Many major groups of rights activists easily overlook, ignore, and deny the other side’s problems and arguments and continue to press on their side of the argument. This happens because of their personal benefit. It is convenient for them (let it be males or females) to have more rights in the future, so the rights activists continue to struggle to this day. I believe that it is necessary for people to open up and reach an agreement that men and women are to be equal, and that they all are entitled to a power to reach an agreement in deciding the distribution of the rights, merits, and responsibilities within the society.

If people want to argue that men and women have the same capabilities, then should the responsibilities of each sex be distributed 50% each? If so, should 50% of the fathers in child custody issues be given a chance to take care of the baby? Should there be no required economic support from the fathers’ side with the assumptions that women are equally capable?

For the wage difference between males and females, is it appropriate to take the maternity leave and other vacancy of the working forces due to some other inevitable female burdens into account when we look into their wages? If so, do we pay them for their times away from work as well? If not, how will you take this approach?

What is the limit that you all are comfortable to set and say that “this is equal” to everyone? Is your ideals for equality something that is entirely 50:50, or something that is derived from each sex’s “roles” within the society? Is it a mix of both? Or is it something entirely different? Do women need more rights over men because in the past, it was other way around? I am very curious.

When confronting these questions, it is very important to question yourself if you are arguing for sake of your own convenience. If you are going to make an emotional appeal for your argument, take into account what the opposite sex will go through emotionally when something similar happens to them. If you are going to make a statistical report, question the source’s biasness from their research, as it is easy to remove the parts that are inconvenient for them and still tell the truth. It will be truly hard to argue in a impartial manner.

OP posts:
FizzyWaterAndElderflower · 29/11/2017 22:39

What do you think OP? Where do you think equality would be on each of these points (be sure to back up your arguments with statistics, and thinking about the other side now!)

I always assumed a jammy dodger like Assassinated

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 29/11/2017 22:39

Yep

Did love a snowball back in the day

QueenLaBeefah · 29/11/2017 22:41

Not a fan of the snowball. Does it have desiccated coconut on it? That stuff gives me the boak.

wnsdkfl · 29/11/2017 22:42

So what do you think should happen in a divorce if we want full equality?
I'm on the side of taking priority of giving the child custody to the willing parents first. If both wants them, then there could be an agreement of splitting the allocated periods of the custody.
Checking for criminal backgrounds, drug/alcohol problems, living conditions, etc also should be taken into account.
These things are already being done when there is a custody dispute, and I see no problem in them.
It is just that it slightly bugs me to see the custody ratio tipping off the 50:50 ratio into mothers' favor because of the maternal responsibility arguments, when at the same time there are also arguments going on for the equal responsibilities for both genders.

OP posts:
wnsdkfl · 29/11/2017 22:44

Also, the specific things that I pointed out initially was just two of the many potential topics out there where there still persists an issue. If you've got other problems that I didn't cover and you consider it to be important, please let me know!

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Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 29/11/2017 22:47

wns

Alrighty

I agree that in an ideal world with no problems that there should be 50/50 custody or at the very least an amicable arrangement in the best interests of the child

I think that is what british courts try for

The problem is that the majority of parents who care for the child on a day to day basis are women...which means that in the interest of continuity they tend, at the moment, to give the majority of the custody to the woman

Women also tend (obviously not always) to be the ones that go part time or stay at home and that too makes a difference

FizzyWaterAndElderflower · 29/11/2017 22:50

Perhaps have a browse of the board OP - we discuss all sorts of problems, we've been doing it for years! Have a read, and perhaps come back if you think there are things we haven't covered?

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 29/11/2017 22:50

Not a fan of the snowball. Does it have desiccated coconut on it?

It does. The greatest achievement of my life is I can make home - made "Tunnock's" tea cakes and snowballs. Kitchen is a disaster area of coconut and melted chocolate but it's worth it.

QueenLaBeefah · 29/11/2017 22:58

That's very impressive Lass. I was stunned on GBBO a few years back when one of the challenges was to make 12 tea cakes. It looked impossible.

MindWillingBodyNotSoMuch · 29/11/2017 22:58

My husband and I are in very similar lines of work, with the same employer. We were both selected for promotion. For this promotion to become permanent we had to complete a course. This course is fairly physical, the only persons not allowed to attend are females who are pregnant.

Shortly before commencing the course I discovered I was pregnant and could not, therefore, complete the course to gain promotion.

I had our gorgeous DD, had 9 months Mat leave, then returned to work. I completed said course at the earliest opportunity and gained promotion (eventually).

We both had a child, yet my husband now has 2 years seniority over me and is looking at further promotion this year. Yet, I am now at least two years behind having been pregnant and then on maternity leave (which is no picnic).

Where is the equality in that??

WhatWouldGenghisDo · 29/11/2017 23:01

Quentin was that a tardis?

Tardis
WhatWouldGenghisDo · 29/11/2017 23:01
Shock
thatstoast · 29/11/2017 23:03

Tunnocks tea cakes - I had to ban them from the house after I ate six in one sitting.

Pretty sure that's the recommended serving size.

wnsdkfl · 29/11/2017 23:05

Certainly some of the men out there will be annoyed for the recent changes. And I am leaving such whiners out of discussion. Can't let some few bad apples spoil the entire basket, right? I am talking about the guys who will bring about good points.

Also, lookism is a problem in Korea, but it is also a problem throughout the world. While plastic surgery issues could be paired up with gender "role" assignment or expectations of women, many other things can be linked to more of the women's rights problems if one argues for it, and it will create an endless list of problems to discuss.

As I initially stated, I am agreeing with all the problems everyone said so far. Yes, they are a problem to be solved, and efforts must be put in to ending them as soon as possible.

I am interested in knowing what general people's ideal gender equality is, while challenging them to consider what the potential counterarguments would be. And since this is an ideal, I have no expectation of the response to be so realistic. (Although some are so ideal that it is about biscuits and caramels Smile)

OP posts:
FizzyWaterAndElderflower · 29/11/2017 23:09

and it will create an endless list of problems to discuss.

Yep, hence this board.

Honestly, we've spoken about it a lot - have a scroll around!

wnsdkfl · 29/11/2017 23:10

Rufustherenegadereindeer1

So you are saying that the mothers tend to be more available for the child than the fathers?
Under such circumstances, it is logical to give the mother more of the child custody.

OP posts:
wnsdkfl · 29/11/2017 23:12

As a side note, I am not here to convince anyone here, but ask questions out of curiosity. I'm planning to ask the same thing to the other side pretty soon too, so please give me serious answers. Smile

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wnsdkfl · 29/11/2017 23:14

MindWillingBodyNotSoMuch

Are you saying that you've missed your promotions because of your inevitable circumstances? While it's unfortunate to hear that, isn't it supposed to be fair to promote someone who was present at work?
Or did you mean something else?

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Bucketsandspoons · 29/11/2017 23:16

Oh God, pass the lemon puffs.

wnsdkfl · 29/11/2017 23:18

While I understand that I asked too many questions, I would like to ask another question. Korea recently set a law where 15% to 20% of the available parking spaces, especially in places like department stores, must be converted to female's use only parking spots. Thanks to that, I had to walk much less because they were all near the entrances of the store, but on one side, I feel like it's slightly unfair. What are your thoughts?

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birdsdestiny · 29/11/2017 23:21

I am all for it. I could get to the biscuit aisle quicker.

FizzyWaterAndElderflower · 29/11/2017 23:22

We spoke about this - Germany has them too:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2498050-women-only-parking-spaces

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2282547-Frauenparkplatz

Really, I think you'll find a lot of answers if you read the board a bit.

wnsdkfl · 29/11/2017 23:23

I'll look into them

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FizzyWaterAndElderflower · 29/11/2017 23:24

If you look at the top of the page, you can search for previous threads, or just have a scroll around.

We've covered, in depth lots of topics over the years.

wnsdkfl · 29/11/2017 23:28

It seems like safety is a big part of the discussion over there. Although less likely to happen, what about the guys' safety in that case? I know it is impossible to accomplish everyone's safety with gender specific parking space.

What about increased lighting and stationed security throughout the parking lot for an overall increase in safety?

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