Work meetings with men

[TheDonald]

Urgh.

I admit I'm spoilt. I work for a dv charity. All internal meetings and most external meetings are female only.

Occasional meetings with funders and supporters include men who are there to help and are usually prepared to listen.

Today I went to a meeting with commissioners and council / police types. It was quite a big meeting but I was there to tell the room about a project that we'd been running so you would think they might bother to listen and not talk over me.

I'd forgotten what it was like when two people start to talk at once but one (male) just forces ahead. I'd normally stop and apologise as would all my colleagues, and then we'd both get chance to speak. In this meeting the men just carried on every time. They totally dominated even though all the females in the room were more informed and more senior. I barely got a point across, and I'm not the shy retiring type.

How do you manage it if you deal with this every day?

Tbh I think you need to keep talking. When they're playing that level of aggression, you have to compete.

the other thing I have done, deliberately, is stop, and do something physical like move my chair very noisily - it has the effect of making everyone realise what's happening but you have to be okay brazening it out and casting round a wide smile. It gets the point across.

bloody hell, it's depressing thinking how much time is wasted on dealing with aggressive gits at work!

Don’t stop talking. We’ve got one of these and if he tries to overtalk me in meetings I simply carry on. If I was talking first he can fuck off until I’ve finished - don’t apologise either. Standing up helps, especially if they are all sitting down. Don’t be afraid to put him in his place - No, I haven’t finished speaking yet please don’t talk over me. I’ve found with our charmer that being direct is the only way. You must make sure you retain the moral high ground though as it’s much more effective!

or chuck the pen down on the table and sigh loudly.

Women do this too...

If you’re running something it can be quite effective to lay out what’s going to happen. “Today we’re covering x, y and z. There are q and a sections but please don’t jump in at any other time as we won’t get through anything”

You may at least get your point across before having to fight verbal manspreading

I have continued talking but I find everybody just listens to the man [sigh] also somehow I end up feeling like I was the aggressor.

I don't know how you handle men like this (I too am lucky where I work in that mostly the men aren't dick-waving twerps) - but I thought this youtube clip might cheer you up/provide inspiration:

Maxine Waters "Reclaiming my time..." when Mnuchin refused to answer the question and waffle around irrelevancies as a distraction technique.

Do this .... (From about 10 secs in)

Mince314 "somehow I end up feeling like I was the aggressor."

Yes. but sometimes it helps to play "I'm an aggressor too, you ass hat" to these people. A pp mentions women doing this - that's why I said "aggressive gits" in my post.

Who was supposed to be chairing the meeting? Sounds like they were pretty ineffectual.

Try listening to the Moral Maze on Radio 4, the panel (male and female) routinely talk over their guests and browbeat them. It is a genuinely unpleasant programme, but it does give some interesting insights into the different techniques the guests use to make their point in the face of wilful ignorance and prejudice.

Who was supposed to be chairing the meeting?

A female, older council member. The police guys talked over her too.

And yes women do this too, although to a lesser extent. I think maybe I'm more willing to persevere against another woman, but I don't want to do it to anyone else. It is rude and unpleasant. I just want the other person to make their point and then say "Donald* what was your point?" like I do for them.

I only observed it today because it was so noticeable that the men were the only ones doing it. And the meeting was about male fucking aggression and violence against women! And all the women in the room were managers of DV services. And we were there to inform them!

*I might need to name change to make this point!

You are generalising hugely. I’m 47 and have been working in science academia all my working life.
I have rarely come across this sort of behaviour. I feel respected and listened to by all my colleagues, male and female.

Very annoying. I'm on a team of men at work and they were like this with me at first. When they did it though, I always made a point of very firmly saying, "SORRY, would you mind letting me finish please before you start talking?" The "sorry" has to be louder than the rest and ideally louder than their voice, and make it clear you're not really sorry at all!

Seemed the do the trick - they let me speak now with no interruption!

was this some kind of situation where the external bodies had power e.g funding? So the chair didn't want to offend them?

btw did you hear what Hillary Clinton said about the Donald hovering over her during debates - I think she now regrets not having said anything. It's better to say something. I do think people see rudeness when you draw attention to it.

sorry, I didn't mean the Donald.

I don't normally refer to him in a non-derogatory way. The SCROTUS.

I once sat and listened to a group of men of varying senior professions argue about a point for around 30 minutes. The only other woman in the room (who I had never met before, and technically was on the opposing side to me) and I sat rolling our eyes at each other the entire time.

The reason? 30 mins earlier I had told the meeting robustly that what was being proposed wasn't lawful and therefore not worth discussing further, quoting the relevant legislation. The other female professional backed me up on this and very succinctly further expanded on why.

The men then continued to discuss the issue as.if.we.hadn't.said.a word until one of them finally got out a hard copy of the relevant legislation and proclaimed 'guys I don't think there's any point discussing this further because according to this it's unlawful'.

It was a very serious and dangerous situation that was being discussed, with potentially massive financial implications. You would have thought that they would have listened to the two professionals most qualified to give their opinion on the situation, despite our sheer audacity to be women

It was totally bizarre and thankfully an experience I have only had once. The group of professionals involved will largely have been similar to those in the OP and should have known better.

Yes to be fair I am generalizing. Or ranting based on one meeting although from past experience and others on this thread I don't think it was an isolated incident.

I love those clips. Thanks. I want to say "reclaiming my time" next time.

No they weren't funders. Some were academics but they weren't particularly bad. It was the three from the police that were the worst.

It could be I'm just a man-hating feminist who is looking to blame men for everything. After the shitty day I've had dealing with the aftermath of abusive knobs I think that's a reasonable viewpoint!

I remember at the start of my career being in a meeting with a consultant from Sun Microsystems. When my male colleague finished up the meeting by saying ‘are we fit?’ (meaning ‘have we covered everything’ for the uninitiated in random British colloquialisms).

The SM guy looked me up and down while nodding appreciatively and said ‘yep, fit as a butcher’s dog’.

FFS.

I see this all the time - from men and women in equal measure. I’m pretty forceful myself but have rained myself to rein it in and only use it when I think the situation merits it. I suspect it’s more likely a police culture issue than a man issue.

One of the best things about dealing with the police or the armed forces is that they tend to be very grade deferential. So if your role is equivalent to a more senior rank than the one they hold, you will be listened to. The flip side is when you are more junior - or perceived to be more junior - they are less likely to listen to you.

It's definitely a cultural thing

I find this slightly odd.

My job involves lots of meetings with mainly men and have never witnessed this happening. If it did I and I was talking I certainly wouldn't shut up for them.

But, it does happen in the wider family environment and I have absolutely no problem at all making my point when DBiL suddenly starts talking on some random topic while I'm trying to have a conversation with DH.

I think you need to keep talking and most importantly provide a very valuable suggestion hard to ignore. Competing with someone who try to dominate is futile. But by adding a great value and proving that your opinion is hard to ignore is the key to get noticed.

I have been through a similar scenario but in my case the men were not trying to dominate. It happened naturally. So, because of their voice and because I am a bit introverted I had a difficult time expressing my views in the meeting. However, I gave few key suggestions in the meeting that made them listen to me. It can be intimidating in the beginning, but you need to stay calm and handle.

I'm the only female on my company's senior management group. I get this. All. The. Time.

I tried the continuing to speak thing but when it came to annual review time I was told I had a tendency to talk over people and not let them get their say

I tackled it by sitting down with each of the men individually and talking to them about it and how sometimes I felt like I wasn't given the opportunity to speak.

Some rolled their eyes and carry on as before, but others took me seriously, one even deploys a tactic now where if he sees that others aren't allowing me to join the conversation he'll say "what do you think venellope?" Or "is there anything you wanted to add venellope?"

I know he shouldn't have to but I figure it's better to have at least some of the men on side and at least he gets it bless him??!!

I have certainly experienced this. Not recently I think but there was a memorable time a couple of years ago when, at a diversity breakfast, I was the only woman there and was constantly talked over by men. The irony apparently escaped them.