CPR

[Jamiek80]

Interested in opinions it seems women are less likely to be given CPR as men fear accusations of sexual assault. I'm a little skeptical as it was in the Mail but I remember from my first aid training about warnings of law suits. I'm sure this won't go well but will the current climate of sexual harassment have a negative effect long term?

I asked in training about those electric pad thingies and underwired bras. We had been told to remove jewelry so I assumed that a bra would be similarly problematic. The trainer looked a bit sheepish and mumbled something about most bras not having enough metal in them to cause a problem

Elendon, that is complete misinformation and could cost someone their life or their brain function. I’d be interested to know your source.

Absolutely, the odds of CPR working are not good. However, it can and does work sometimes, especially if combined with defibrillation (which can also be done by members of the public if an AED is available). Your best chance of survival is to be in the type of cardiac arrest that a defib will work on, to have early defibrillation and good bystander CPR.

OlennasWimple

Underwired bras do not (should not) have metal touching skin, therefore not a problem.

People are defibbed on metal trollies and beds all the time, but they are insulated from it.

If it is an old bra, and I think everyone has had a wire pop out then it may burn but people are surprisingly OK about a chest burn if they are alive.

GTN patches - they are another thing

So OP, what do you think is the answer? Women stop reporting sexual harassment so that they get CPR in an emergency? That's a fairly bleak choice and it's a shame you seem to be implying that it's up to women to change their behaviour here rather than men, who are the ones actually in the wrong.

Yes, being a Good Samaritan can be risky for all sorts of reasons. But if you withhold CPR from a woman because you're so afraid of a lawsuit, your moral compass is seriously wonky.

We won't stop women reporting. We will work to change the behaviour of the men doing the harassing as they are the ones at fault here.

If I recall correctly, the general public is under no legal obligation to attempt to help anyone in distress. In fact, attempting to help someone may create questions of negligence.

You are under no obligation to help, that is correct. However, you will be supported by the law if you do help.

Some information here from the Resuscitation Council (UK).

Call 999 and they will talk you through it anyway.

That said, as I said, I think it is an issue and with better public CPR training we could maybe start to address it. In the current climate lots of people are concerned about accusations and complaints.

If I recall correctly, the general public is under no legal obligation to attempt to help anyone in distress.

*In England and Wales.

In what possible world do people really believe, given the conviction rate for sexual assault, that a person would be prosecuted for performing CPR on a woman?

Who would bring this prosecution? Does anyone have any actual case where this has happened?

And well, as to underwires poking through, that's a sobering thought, I will have to make sure I keep mine in good repair just in case.

It was in the Mail.

Oy gevalt!

Fizzy, it’s not about the conviction rate IMO. The ‘case’ would never get prosecuted. The fear is that they will be accused of inappropriate behaviour and that even if it goes no further than that (which it won’t), then the accusation, gossip, time and general stress involved in defending that would be very upsetting.

That some men are reluctant to administer CPR due to fear of being accused of something/weird awkwardness be true to some extent, but I really doubt that this fear is justified.

When I've been in the situation of helping someone get medical help ( a man) in a crowded place other people were initially very reluctant to get involved, due to the "someone else will sort it" bystander effect.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect
I suspect that this and a general lack of initiative are far more likely to be the reason people don't help than the sexual assault thing, though of course that may be a factor for some people.

The CPR training I've said mentioned it was important to speak loudly and clearly when approaching a potential casualty and to communicate what you are doing to other people, but tbh aside from accusations of sexual assault this would be important anyway; you don't leap on a prone figure and instantly start CPR without checking whether they are responsive or not first.
eg, pounding on the chest of a sunbather on a beach and then claiming that "I thought she needed CPR guv" would rightly put you into hot water.

On a slightly related note, I've also heard people in rl complain that "law suit culture" has apparently put some people off helping those involved in car accidents in case they get blamed for causing a back injury when they move them. In this case, good! You shouldn't be moving anyone with a potential spinal injury, unless you really know what you are doing and their life is in imminent danger.

Better training would be good for everyone, imo.

^ I've had not I've said.

Mouth to mouth doesn’t actually confer significant benefit in a witnessed arrest, where the casualty usually has adequate oxygen on board prior to their collapse

Not often the case with children and babies who collapse, who are more likely to be in respiratory arrest. Five rescue breaths should be given before commencing compressions and breaths in a ratio of 15:2 in children as opposed to 30:2 in adults. I did a PILS course recently where I was basically told CPR is next to useless if rescue breaths aren't given as the person will eventually deoxygenate and suffer irreversible organ damage.

PILS is a course for HCPs. The ratio for children is 15:2 for health care professionals with a duty of care to that child. The ratio for lay people is usually taught as 30:2 even for children to reduce confusion and therefore reduce the risk of nothing being done.

Please people, do a first aid course, or at least get an app on your phones if you are not sure what to do in an emergency.

Dialling 999 talks you through all of this anyway.

To clarify, yes 15:2 is better for children but to increase the likelihood of children receiving bystander CPR it tends to be taught as 30:2 for the public.

The fear is that they will be accused of inappropriate behaviour and that even if it goes no further than that (which it won’t), then the accusation, gossip, time and general stress involved in defending that would be very upsetting.

Whereas letting a woman die without even trying to help wouldn't be?

Hmmm.. If you would attempt CPR on a man, but not a woman because you're worried you'll be accused of sexual assault, and you feel that subjecting yourself to that risk is worse than trying to save a woman's life, I think that is the ultimate misogyny.

Literally saying I'd rather she died than have someone perhaps say something mean about me.

I think the real reason is more likely to
Be because women are less valued in and by society, so we are less important, and so less help is given when we need it. We see this at every level in society, so why would first aid/CPR be any different?

It's another symptom of an overall crappy situation women as a class are in.

I am trying to explain what men may be feeling. I totally agree it is not right and I can’t think of any men I know who wouldn’t. But actually, letting a woman die may not be subject to public abuse. Men and women die all the time (or have worse outcomes) because people do not do bystander CPR.

I’m just trying to agree with the OP that this is an issue and we shouldn’t bury our heads in the sand about it. I would stop and help but lots wouldn’t.

Also (from feedback I am given), people are concerned that they might assess for signs of breathing, find that the person does not require CPR and then that they would be accused of assault. It is not based in law but I can understand why people feel it and men more than others. Not convinced that they are being mysogynistic.

I see what you're saying Rainbow, but the reason men feel like that is because so many men do assault women, in all sorts of situations. The situation men are in is that women feel they can't trust them. So shouldn't men do something about that, instead of whining about how hard done by they are?

How many men have been prosecuted for sexual assault after giving CPR? I cant find any examples using Google and it sounds like an urban legend.
How can men say this and at the same time tell us our fears of male violence are unfounded? I'm looking at you, James O'Brien.

None have been prosecuted nor are likely to be. The point is that they fear the threat of it, or the damage done by even an accusation of wrong doing.

Literally saying I'd rather she died than have someone perhaps say something mean about me

I think most people would prefer something bad happen to a complete stranger than themselves?

So for fear of being accused they let a person die?

On the scale of 'something bad' dying is a hell of a lot worse that someone maybe thinking something not nice about you.