Sometimes I despair...

[theliterarycat]

... and wonder if women will ever be seen as equals.

When in the same week I hear of perfectly seemingly normal male friends who don’t think their wives should drive across Europe. Or believe that they are not fit to get a driver’s licence. And think it is so selfish to end a marriage when unhappy or admit that it would have been better if wives did not work and stayed at home so they could get important jobs like all the other blokes who were making the dosh because had sah wives and did not have childcare or read to their children after work. Same men who now sadly widowed feel how brain dead can be being home but still believe it would hsve been ok for a woman because of the higher goal.

These are not openly chauvinistig men. And yet... and fucking yet... still we are here. Still at the point where men still take it for granted that they will decide and judge which weight to carry and which position to take in society. And tell us where we should be and what to do for the “easier runing of things”. And call us selfish for deciding to think with our own heads and chose different paths.

Oh fuck off!!

(Apologies for the rant but had to vent before going to bed as it was eating me inside.)

Somedyke I must admit sometimes the thought is tempting... like on tueasday night. If I had super powera then I’d have made them all vanish in a puff of smoke.

The older I get, the more I see it... when I was younger I truly believed men and women were pretty much equal now. I thought my bf (who I then married) believed the same.

Then we got married and had DC and he turned into his dad in terms of his expectations of me as the mother/ home maker. My career took a complete backseat. Then we got divorced and he decided to move away, no discussion, leaving me to do most of the parenting single handed while he just picks them up every other weeeknd. In the divorce settlement he refused to admit I should be entitled to any of 'his' money because 'he' earned it (fortunately the court did not agree!)

As a mother I've been asked about childcare in job interviews on 3 separate occasions. I'm sure exH never has, or any man for that matter. I've been penalised for having to take time off when my DC were ill. I think it's no coincidence that pretty much all the senior leadership team at my school are male. I'm surrounded by women doing part time jobs to fit in with childcare while their husbands' careers are soaring.

My life's mission now is to make sure my DDs make better life choices than I did and always support themselves!

Not really sure where this discussion is going but I would wager a few groats that many men would love to be able to SAY to their employer 'I will leave at 2:30 every day so I can collect my child from school' so I can enjoy a bit of quality time with them and give them their tea.
I don't recognise the 'chairman's privileges', out drinking with 'the guys' after work or some of the other stereotypical 'man things' as part of my work experience

Do you think that your experience is typical and that these things just don't exist?

Why do you think all these men are unable to say to their employers that they'd like to work part-time or flexi-time?

many men would love to be able to SAY to their employer 'I will leave at 2:30 every day

Then why don't they? women make whatever career sacrifices will enable them to pick up their kids etc as a matter of course. What's stopping men from doing the same?

What's stopping men from doing the same?
Because they enjoy complaining more than they enjoy spending time with their kids? Because what they really mean is 'I want to sack off work at 2:30' and not the next bit? Because, as stated in the op, these men don't think they're chauvinist - but they still think career sacrifice is something for women and not for them? Because, like I said before, they lack the imagination to realise that things don't have to be this way - even when you explain it them REALLY SIMPLY - they are still wedded to the notion of a breadwinner and a homemaker? Because men do find it harder to get time off or part time hours (due to the sexism of their bosses, thinking their wife should be doing this stuff) and they don't get that if they are ever going to be able to get this easily it is something they will have to fight for? Because they don't care enough about it to actually fight for it? Because the status quo actually works for them really really well?

Also outabout you don't just say to your employers that your leaving at 2:30 from now on, you put in an application for reduced hours and they will review it and either approve or reject. If this is something you want to do - go ahead, the worst they can say is 'no'. And then you have a legitimate grievance. But getting your boss to agree to this is something you may well have to fight for. If you can't be bothered with the fight - then your wife will have to pick up that slack. Which is sort of what this entire discussion has been about...

I do wonder whether part of it is that women just expect everything to be a bit shit and that everybody will probably disapprove whatever they do and that any concessions they might get will need to be fought for tooth and nail. Whereas men might expect things to come more easily and therefore not really consider fighting and making sacrifices and attracting criticism and so on ... ? Don't know really, just speculating

Many men would love to finish work at 2.30 for sure if it did not hinder their careers. So would many women. That’s not what we are talking about.

Because they would be sacked or discriminated against.
Rather than focusing on WOMEN who 'have to' do part time, making at women's issue, try directing some effort at EMPLOYERS to see flexible working times for ALL.
It may require managers to think a little but hell they get paid more TO think. There are various discussions/arguments to be had but they are not necessarily WOMAN specific. A Person working is a resource for a company and a well managed company would (I would hope) attempt to have a 'happy' workforce.
Having spent far too long on MN it seems that there is an inbuilt resentment among some women that men get all the best deals. If you took a step back and look at the situation 'one stage removed' is it actually because someone is a woman or is it more accurately a person 'forced' into that position and that a woman may be cajoled into doing the job more easily than a man.
It would be interesting to get the real views from companies where the CEO and all senior management are all women, to find out if their views of their workforce are the same as a male only run company. I would suspect it probably wouldn't be too different as business goals are usually about making money which seems to imply in a simplistic way to get the most hours and effort from the workforce. Of course many jobs don't lend themselves to 'flexi time' but there again is it a GENDER issue or something different?
Going back to the OP's 'friends', no they are $^obheads.
Yes there is inequality (I don't think there should be) but rather than hanging a sign saying 'martyr' around your neck and continually raging, make practical suggestions and act.

Yes it's woman specific, yes it's a gender issue. If you analyse your most recent post carefully you will see why.

because they would be sacked or discriminated against

Well yes, so are women.

The only reason this is a woman's issue is that women are taking these risks and men don't want to

Outandabout the one raging is you. And nobody put the martyr sign. I think your views are blinkered. Just because someone goes out and does something it doesn’t mean the problem is not there, if nothing else it highlights that there is an issue or there’d be nothing to be done.

When we had a DC I worked part time and was a SAHD and DW progressed and got promotions. DW earns several times more than I do.

outabout
I would wager a few groats that many men would love to be able to SAY to their employer 'I will leave at 2:30 every day so I can collect my child from school'
Thats a comment along the lines of 'women cant drive across Europe'. I dont know any working parents who could relate to it.

What does your individual specific circumstances contribute to the wider picture? I'm sure you're not trying to say that because that's the case for you, there's no problem and women are just resentful of men who are just somehow better at their careers.

The point though is that one should not need “a wife” at home to have a decent shot at a career, like myale friwnd put it. And like you put it too outandabout. Yes there are more men that stay at home but that does not fix things. And the fact that it is so rare again states the obvious.

I am not raging at anybody.
I apologise if I have intruded on your rant against men.

Oh please

Or here's a shocking and radical idea ... you both made that baby so you both take a slight career hit! Both of you working slightly less hours so you can be at home for equal amounts of the time - covering childcare and looking after the house when it is your turn.

I've always said I'm not having a baby unless that is the deal.
DH would struggle with breast feeding for the first six months, but beyond that.
Why don't we both reduce our hours slightly and take alternate fridays off? Four day weeks appear to be the default for my part time friends... So let's share it.
In reality we both like going to gigs/theatre / cinema too much to have a baby.

Thank you Glittery, a positive thought.

Glittery that would have been my idea. But xdh said he couldnt because it’s done in his industry. True but he didnt even try because trying means being already in the wrong foot and in a vulnerable needy position with your employer. Who wants that? Who wants to risk your chances? So he stays ft and I go part time. And that’s where it starts...

Half equal parental leave is the way to start... to educate parents and employers.

It’s NOT done, typo

All these negative resentful women, eh? Good job you're here to set us all right, outandabout.

I personally don't understand the concept that equality means a half and half split of all labour..

Surely feminism is about equal choice and celebrating individuality?

I chose to staye at home breastfeeding and running a house..I now work pastime and still run the house..

I appreciate the fact that hubby has worked his bollocks off for years to allow our children to be brought up in a certain way...

He's a far better saver than me...I would spend it on boots..

Am I a feminist?..abso bloody lutely..

Do I have choice in my relationship?..most definitely..

Thats why we are still married..

DH and I have both worked PT since the DC were born, originally 80% each, now 90%. Worth pointing out that legally we have both always done over 30h a week and so are FT employees acçording to the government.

The way our respective employers have treated us is very different though. DH has repeatedly been offered promotions (by 2 different employers) that he has taken on probation then he has turned down because of how they've impinged on family life. He gets lots of praise for being a hands on Dad (he genuinely does his fair share of the wifework).

I started pushing for an internal promotion about 2 years ago, the FIRST question every manager I spoke to asked was 'how will you manage your childcare?' (DH is never asked this), I was told by one manager that middle aged mothers weren't ambitious enough for the job he was recruiting for. When I was offered a promotion my then manager refused to release me for a year but also refused to discuss developing me in the role I was then in so I could get promoted that way. They took advantage of the fact that I was a parent who had limited options to move employer without uprooting the entire family. When I finally got the promotion every discussion with my new HoD includes him asking how I'm coping doing the job PT (the only other women doing it are childless and all the men work FT). I feel like I have to be a posterchild for competent mothers so that other women don't have such a fight.

DH and I have had very different experiences of being PT employees, it is much harder for women than for men.