Newsnight looking at issue of men!

[Walkingdead11]

On now.....

I'm not a rocket scientist so fortunately I am fine thanks. I don't have a problem with boundaries. I'm not an expert on gender sociology. I was trying to explain a bit of why I think that this happens and that there are wider underlying societal drivers. You don't agree. I really hope that just by telling people not to do something they will stop. They might, I just don't think they will. Bon nuit.

You're suggesting that most men simply don't understand what's inappropriate, @ForestDad. So the response is to think of ways to make it abundantly clear, in the manner of the Rock test. Yet you say this will not work. So it can't be the case that men just don't understand what's inappropriate - they're doing it deliberately because they feel entitled/able to do so and enjoy it.

So it can't be the case that men just don't understand what's inappropriate - they're doing it deliberately because they feel entitled/able to do so and enjoy it

I think this just about sums it up. I've always worked in really informal environments and sometimes in a more confined space such as behind a bar where you have to squeeze past eachother or touch eachother to get attention as it's so loud. You do often end up quite close to the other staff members and maybe even loose the worries about catching change their t shirts in the corner etc sometimes you were even at the hugging point etc

But

Those same staff members would still jump in there to have a go at customers who thought they could "join in". Who thought that your work friend whacking you with a tea towel or throwing an ice cube at you was am invitation to ping your underwear or comment on your arse.

It is possible to read the situation, to know when someone is comfortable and happy with the interactions and how far is too far. It doesn't mean you have a "touch free life" and that the male staff members can't come near you. Those who spout nonsense such as "can't even do X Any nore" are probably the slime balls who have never worried about how they make someome feel or cant refrain from taking things to far. That it's all or nothing.

Interesting that Forest seems to be linking promiscuity (I assume consensual sex with many partners) with harrassment/assault (non consensual sexual touching, comments). That seems very common.

I think as a nation we have very very little understanding of consent. The is so popular I think, because it's never been a clear idea in many people's heads.

I was amazed when I joined mumsnet because women here could explain really clearly what consent was. to them - they totally changed my understanding.

That poor understanding of consent enables (not causes) harrassment/assault being normal, and a public (male) reaction that it's "just one of those things" or "any one of us could be accused etc"

I'm fairly sure the adult males doing the harrassing/assaulting have a perfectly good understanding of consent, to be clear.

Something Forest said: 'In a society human behaviour is shaped and caused by many different factors and these make the society the way it is. '

We can tell boys / men till we're blue in the face not to touch on the mere assumption it's ok, but they will still be surrounded by tv / adverts / movies / internet / porn showing an entirely different dynamic. Which will they act on? Depressingly, I suspect the latter.

I feel more and more like Mary Whitehouse as I get older.

Forest "I was trying to explain a bit of why I think that this happens and that there are wider underlying societal drivers"

but where did you explain that?

There is an issue with a sexualised culture and media which accepts and sometimes actively encourages objectification of women, and this in turn engenders bad behaviours by men....but the culture doesn't just fall from the sky ready-formed. It is made by patriarchy i.e. by men.

I think following the simple rules 'don't touch if you are unsure it's not welcome. Don't make remarks about a woman's appearance if you are ditto' are a great start....and we could add lewd comments, catcalls, sexy remarks, to the list too.

I really don't think it's a lot to ask - whatever the culture, men don't have to succumb to it.

If you are unsure whether or not it's welcome *

I think men don't understand that there is a spectrum of behaviours around sex/threat and that for women, we have to work out how much of a threat these 'normal' behaviours are. Constantly.

So we know a man who makes a sexual remark to us is more of a threat than someone who doesn't. But how much of a threat is he? Where does he go next after the sexual remark? Is it into propositioning us for sex? If he's got a powerful position then how do we reject without it escalating even further?

So men don't see that "simply touching a women" on the arm is a situation that raises the threat levels, gets us tuned in to what might be coming next.

For men, therefore it's quite simple...unless you want to be a guy who is raising alert in women, understand that 'flirting' can be life or death for women so don't be a dick about it, unless of course that's your intention and we are right to be scared

I did a diagram to try and explain which you probs won't be able to read because it's actually my scribbles

Yes, it's a spectrum, moon, forcing us to judge and assess in order to protect ourselves from an early age.

I don't like 'sweetheart' and 'darlling* from men I don't know. Of course in most cases it's being 'friendly' but it's over familiar and it crosses a boundary.

The other day I bought a coffee from a coffee chain. The young man serving me was young enough to be my son. He called my 'my love' - I didn't feel at all unsafe, but I felt he was disrespecting the normal boundaries....many women would be like me and they just would not like it. So don't do it! Just be friendly and polite without the fucking endearments. It's not hard!

Mooncuplanding

That’s a great diagram.

I wish men would realise that women are not clairvoyant. That we have, from a very early age, had to constantly risk assess with regards to men.

Sometimes men have got creep written across their forehead. It’s a piece of piss to recognise. Sometimes it really, really isn’t. And if that forehead creep is your boss, you are adding another layer of power into the situation.

That’s a whole new spreadsheet. It’s exhausting.

Do men sexually harass women because they want to have sex with them? Or do they do it because they like the power?

Because I’ve managed to have sexual relationships with umpteen people without any kind of harassment being involved.

Datun that Douglas what's his name from the Soectator was on the radio this morning wondering how relationships can ever start anywhere when men are 'not allowed' to be flirty and make remarks.

Like you I have had plenty of relationships which have begun with no harassment or bothersome behaviour at all. I suppose in some there was an element of flirtation but respectful men look for a mutuality in this.

I mean why is it so difficult? Why is it hard not to touch, not to be a PITA, not to be a creep? Why the cries of 'poor old men' when this is challenged?

tiktok

Totally. If you think you might want to have sex with someone, ask them out for a drink!

If you are their boss, make it absolutely crystal clear that it’s not loaded request in any way.

And if they say no, don’t ask again.

It’s really not difficult.

I’ve just watched this programme. It was the most infuriating viewing I have ever seen. What a wasted opportunity, I feel outraged at what I’ve just seen. Utterly depressing.

I like your diagram, mooncup - I think most women have a version of that in their heads.

Totally. If you think you might want to have sex with someone, ask them out for a drink!

If you are their boss, make it absolutely crystal clear that it’s not loaded request in any way.

See I don't think a boss should ever initiate any sort of romantics. The power difference.

I know it’s waaaay up thread but picking up on the ‘vindictive woman’ comment....

I was sexually assaulted (very low level) and sexually harassed in work so I reported it to HR. Pending gross misconduct hearing, but despite this, I was told by a male ‘friend’ that I was actually a woman scorned and he couldn’t see why it was being taken so seriously.... He also tried to discourage me from reporting it by saying work would then see me as the problem and be out to get me.

I had a bit of an argument with dp about this last night

Started off him.just moaning about fave book posts at which point I said that being a public forum and having the right to free speech etc that people can post what they like and it's not exactly a bad thing for people to see the extent of the problem.

But then he just went into a rant about how the posts all just blamed men and it was unfair men get blamed for everything cos when women go out in stupid clothes....

I can't even look at him this morning I feel quite sick actually. I have 2 dds. We will all wear wtf we like thank you because it's never about clothes or it wouldn't happen to people who were dressed for work or sat at home in sweat pants etc

He had no response other than "that's different" when I explained I was offered money whilst completely covered in a jacket down to my knees.

It's not different ffs unless of course you are saying I shouldn't have been walking home alone in the dark either..

Gileswithachainsaw

Sorry but your dp is a prize idiot !!

He's not an idiot. Idiot is not strong enough a term. I can't even look at him right now. I'm going to fuck off out soon i just can't deal with it....

Sometimes i feel like im.on a completely different planet to everyone around me. I'm finding it harder and harder to bite my tongue.

Now I'm just wondering how long it's going to be til he starts thinking I'm the one being a bitch given he's just suggested we all go to the supermarket today and I said no I just wanted to go.

The tea video should be shown in all schools, to everyone.
Fantastic.

Gileswithachainsaw

Entrenched views like that about rape myths are prevalent.

The fact that they are so entrenched is part of the problem. You have to give a crash course in feminism to get someone to understand.

Wait for a time when the atmosphere has improved, then tell him you need to speak to him and can he set aside half an hour or so.

Then let him have it.

If you calmly explain everything to him. It will give him food for thought. If he still remains a prize idiot, then that’s different.

Having to painstakingly explain to people is stressful. But it’s worth it. There sometimes does come lightbulb moment, when they get it. Obviously it’s harder with men.

The problem with all this, is it takes time. Tell him it’s incredibly important to you to talk to him about this. Because you don’t think he understands. And you want to try and help him to.

Sorry if this sounds patronising, I really don’t mean it to be.

See I don't think a boss should ever initiate any sort of romantics. The power difference.

Yeah make. I admit it’s a really tricky one. I’m inclined to agree with you.

No I know what you are saying trouble is be will probably see it as patronising he honestly doesn't see the problem and I don't think he will and it really would just cause an argument I can't fave right now where I'll somehow end up being on the receiving end of a million "offences" he's stored up to hurl at me when he cant justify his points.

I will try I guess but....

At no point have I or would I say that men haven't been falsely accused or manipulated but that's for men to start their own "campaign" not to play the victim on "ours"

Gileswithachainsaw

Ahh I know, was trying to be polite. I'd show him the thread.......although his mind is probably made up?? I feel your pain.