Child marriage in the USA

[PricklyBall]

BBC piece

I've posted about this before on Mumsnet (outside of FWR I get greeted with cries of "no, that isn't true" - though the Washington Post, New York Times, Independent over here have carried articles on it in recent years). Just thought I'd start another thread, by way of a bit of consciousness raising (and also possibly raise the idea that the UK ought to be pressing for an end to marriage before the age of 18 too).

I doubt it will be exposed tbh, social services are massively over stretched and a law to prevent spouses from coming here will never be passed as they are a cheap form on unskilled labour willing to generally speaking work long hours in poor conditions.

I didn't misunderstand the American poster. I think she's spot on. That principle goes really deep - along with ideas about religious freedom (which also facilitates this). What I also think I see is that this comes into conflict with the rights to autonomy of vulnerable individuals (namely girl children), and that those rights ultimately come second (partially through refusing to acknowledge that vulnerability or a rephrasing of lack of autonomy as an expression of autonomy.

Another thing about the myth of this being the fault of 'political correctness' is that it transfers responsibility from the state to individuals - who can then be scapegoated under a demonised cloud of misnaming as 'politically correct liberals who did nothing' - when in fact it is the lack of actual state-funded mechanisms-to-do-something that prevents anything 'being done'.

It's all very well having a law. That's headline-grabbing and gives a right-wing, cutback-obsessed government a coating of caring, and allows them to look like social liberals whilst actually hammering the vulnerable. It's another thing entirely to actually put funding in place for the mechanisms that need to be there to protect vulnerable people (in this case, girl children).

But it is about political correctness;

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/police-forced-marriage-fear-racism-accusations-islamophobia-a7995181.html

the problem is kept under the radar, not enough is being done about it. I think it's a genuine area in need of attention.
The problem of "honour/Izzat" exists here in the U.K. Girls are being abused and sent abroad. People are so scared of appearing to be racist it's being ignored. Yes it's not religion it's the notion of honour. Children are promised in marriage from a very young age, and are sent abroad or sometimes murdered when they don't go along with it.
It's relevant to this topic because it's making people aware that uk and USA girls are still becoming child brides and legislating against it in those respective countries is the tip of the iceberg of what needs to be done.

Political correctness affects the state, the police, education, social care, they are failing on this front.

Half of the states do have rigid laws about minimum marriage age - most often 16 though there are some 15s and a few 14s and 13s. So it’s clearly not something that the US public as a whole won’t accept. Utah, for example, which you might expect to be dodgy, has a minimum age of 15 with parental consent.

Last post made it look like I think marriage at 15 is OK. It’s not, but given that 16 is a fairly normal legal age worldwide it’s not exactly medieval.

The Daily Mail will tell you it's all the fault of 'politically correct' social workers, police, health care providers and teachers.

All I can tell you is that it is drummed into us, explicitly - on PGCE courses and the like - that it is politically and legally wrong to 'turn a blind eye'.

Honestly, can you see the damage that idea of a legion of ill-defined 'liberals' does? It stops the clamour for funding and replaces it with vaguely hate-filled feelings towards some 'other' group, who are supposedly colluding. It stops people generally considering this to be a problem all of society has a responsibility towards. It stops a questioning of the funding priorities of society (more money for social services would be a good start). Ultimately, it leaves a vulnerable group without real protection and support.

Evil Sorry if my post made it sound as though the US, as a whole, is 'OK' with child marriage. I do realise the situation is more nuanced than that.

To be fair, I can tell the situation is more nuanced than that simply because I've watched 'Clueless', with it's joke at the end about marriage.

there have been numerous failures to protect victims. Frequently agencies get it wrong, for examine banax manhood was so let down by the police.
Nazir Afzal from the Crown Prosecution Service said a while ago that we have no idea how many unmarked graves there are in Britain, let alone the girls who are taken abroad, because their parents obviously don't report them missing.

“If you’re going to do a drama about this issue then it really has to be realistic, and not getting into the realms of fearing about cause and offence or offending communities — because these things are happening."- jasvinder sanghera.

A lot of this goes unreported, it's really a huge problem and I feel lacks attention and I do think part of the problem is political correctness and lack of understanding

It's not just funding it's awareness, yes there are specialist safeguarding officers, there are also many front line staff who are first responders who are the ones that go to these incidents, that may miss the signs because they don't fully understand. Not just police but medical staff, social care etc.
It's not just the girls in education, it's the ones that are home schooled, removed from school, allowed to slip under the radar.

It's not hate filled, it's about protection of girls living in the uk. karma nirvana is a charity dedicated to helping victims and it was there I got the independent article from, because they know that knowledgw is lacking in this area and agencies tiptoe around the issues for fear of offending.

Political correctness affects the state, the police, education, social care, they are failing on this front.

Because we are taught to focus on the wrong thing, which you are also doing, rather than on the crime. That's down to poor management and a culture which discourages whistleblowing and the reporting of crimes.

That's the thing you need to tackle. Not prattle on about 'Muslims do this'. No rapists who use religion as a cover do this.

Change the language instead of using it poorly. Change the culture, of the institutions to work with community rather than merely attacking huge sections of the community unfairly.

We try to tackle too many problems by getting distracted and hitting out at the wrong group.

Political correctness does have a place in our society. When it is attacked, this leads to justifying racism, sexism etc.

Don't criticise liberals who see a different - but also legitimate - problem. You just create more social problems by doing so. It is not a failure of liberal principles. It is a failure of the application of those principles. You don't simply rip up those principles because its being poorly applied. Especially where the alternative is even worse and usually even more poorly applied.

You have to create an environment where you look at the issues side by side and say 'bad person bad' and a culture where victims are not treated poorly.

And I would argue that a lot of it comes down to money. There isn't the will for funding for anything but window-dressing. We are living with a government that is still pursuing an austerity programme. The police force funding is being cut, health funding is being cut, education funding is being cut, there certainly isn;t an expansion in social services. The money is being cut - not expanded to actually, really fund protection of these vulnerable groups.

Blaming people who are actually doing their best, with very little, simply exonerates those who are actually responsible.

I think we are just going to have to disagree on this point. Personally, I think the myth of 'political correctness' is a useful lie. It masks a systemic and political decision to under-fund. It makes the jobs of people - for example, teachers and social workers, who carry a legal burden to not 'turn a blind eye - far harder. Not only do they carry a responsibility, without the resources to actually follow through effectively, they also risk carrying the can when, inevitably, they can't perform the impossible.

RTB That is a very eloquent defence of liberalism and principle. I'm glad you posted that. I sometimes forget that it needs saying when 'political correctness' (with the scare quotes) is invoked.

I'm not trying to demonise any group but it is more prevelant in South Asian, middle eastern countries, it's just a fact- it shouldn't be controversial to say that and it shouldn't detract from raising awareness. It is a big problem and yet hardly any attention is given to it, things are improving but still lacking. Yes professionals have training but it's inadequate, the general public have very little knowledge of it.
This shouldn't come down to, me saying it is more prevelant in certain groups to being shut down and no more discussion.

It's exactly political correctness- people feel uncomfortable saying things. It's evident on here- me raising anything being called whataboutery, it's not all x,y,z discussions detracting from a genuine issue that gets little coverage. I feel I haven't said anything wrong.

The problem with the "freedom" argument is that children should not be given the same freedom as adults.
Surely even extreme libertarians don't support the idea of children doing whatever they want?

So either the "freedom" is about allowing children to decide whether or not they marry, with all the long term legal, emotional, social and physical consequences that can lead to, or it is about allowing parents the freedom to marry off their children.

The former doesn't make sense because children are not equipped to make that kind of decision. Even if you think that some 15 year olds are, surely you agree that 10 year olds cannot consent? Or 8 year olds? Do you really think there should be no minimum age?

The latter doesn't make sense because legally you need the consent of those getting married. Should parents have the freedom to force their children to marry in the name of Liberty?

Even if a marriage is not consummated until the child is older, they have still entered into an agreement (religious and/or legal) they are not capable of fully understanding.

No not countries like USA- like Pakistan, where children from U.K. And US are taken to marry- it's happening all the time! We could do something about that but no one seems to talk about it

You are incredibly ill informed. Child marriage is forced marriage and things are being done about it.

This is why we have 'forced marriage protection order's. This is why civil servants in Pakistan will look for and bring home girls who have disappeared.

Yes it still happens but laws are in place.

My blood runs cold when people defend sex with underage children as 'freedom'. Children cannot consent, it removes their freedom. Its the point of an age of consent, and its concerning that the US does not treat this as a federal issue.
Some churches force underage rape victims to marry their abuser. India has banned child marriage, the US could manage to if it had the will to do so.

''A 2011 study found that some 9.4m US women were married before age 16. ''
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/11-year-old-girl-forced-to-marry-rapist-florida-church-child-marraige-a7761816.html

Any child married off young is one child too many, and British children being married abroad is a problem.
However, at least the fact that it is illegal within Britain makes it harder for those who try to marry/marry off children. The more barriers, the more children are protected. When a child has to be sent abroad to be married, it creates more opportunities for the marriage to be stopped.

Missy, I think on a lot of points most would agree with the nitty gritty of what you say. Its how you say it and the angle you come at it which is the problem.

The sad thing is that when authoritarian policy is poorly applied - in the same way in which political correctness is applied - through poor management and understanding of the policy which focuses on the wrong thing, you end up with persecution.

There is common ground here, but language and how you use it is important. Don't lose sight of what the real objective and goal is.

Thats why you have been accused by others of whataboutry

Sash- no I'm not ill informed, quite the opposite and I've met victims of honour based abuse first hand. You know nothing about me.
People don't want to give this issue any acknowledgement yet it is deserving of more attention than it receives.
Issues like this should be where feminism focuses to make positive change, instead of the usual man bashing it's obsessed with.

Squishysquirmy- That's it tho it's not hard to marry a child off abroad, children do go missing from education, they are taken abroad in the summer holidays. It's not a rare occurrence. Children are scared to report because it can put them in real danger.

Redtoothbrush- what angle that I take, the truth?
Seriously why has the focus become "political correctness". It's about not being blind to an issue that's occurring that doesn't get much attention because people feel uncomfortable.