Ian Duncan-smith says unmarried men are a problem for society

[QuentinSummers]

m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_59d3b8f9e4b04b9f92054af5
Seems to me there are undertones that women should be controlling men better.

Also quite a lot of blatant sexism such as men who aren't married develop "low value for women" which suggests to me that the value women hold is intrinsicly linked to their chastity/marriageability to ID'S

Interested to hear what others think because I'm being a bit inarticulate on this.

A day at work and on the bus h9me now and john still wont acknowledge male privilege!

Cognative dissonance. He cannot acknowledge it because it mak3s his own perceived lack of success more personal.
So he will push water up hill rather than think about that.

Women are not selfish. Women are carers and givers and give too much to their families at the 3xpense of their own time, opportunity, earninfs and savings and yet still men will berate women for raising feminist issues and not being even more selfl3ss.

Sparrowhawk you are magnificent [beer]

I agree entirely. You are also rather fabulous Quentin

Sparrowhawk and Quentin are both magnificent! So many fantastic women on here.

Women are not selfish. Women are carers and givers and give too much to their families at the 3xpense of their own time, opportunity, earninfs and savings and yet still men will berate women for raising feminist issues and not being even more selfl3ss.

Indeed L0quacious. Women (and girls) do so much whilst navigating a society in which misogyny still thrives yet are criticised no matter what, the onus always on them to fix all society's (very much man made) ills.

Women are not selfish. Women are carers and givers and give too much to their families at the 3xpense of their own time, opportunity, earninfs and savings and yet still men will berate women for raising feminist issues and not being even more selfl3ss.

That is a completely patriarchal viewpoint. Women are carers and nurturers are they? This notion was invented by men to keep women in the home.

Marie Le Pen is not a nice person. Anne Marie Walters is not a nice person. That woman who leads the ADF is not a nice person. If women have power they are no less likely to abuse it - or, indeed, to do all sorts of good things with it.

By the way I completely agree with most of what is being said about men, and there abuse of women, both in the past and now.

What is problematic is the view that on hand women are lovely and fluffy and therefore feminists have to give no thought to how they use power if they should gain it - that them having power is a victory in itself - and that on the other it is perfectly legitimate for them to be just as shitty as men. Contradiction much. Of course, the plight of poor or socially marginalised men is not women's problem - but neither is it exclusively men's problem. Conversely, women's problems are not just women's problems. People's problems are people's problems.

I was thinking about Sparrowhawk's suggestion that women should only bother with issues that impact on women and the guys should just sort out their own issues or just suck it up. If women are going to gain power how would that actually work? They'll be in government, running councils, charities, NGO's, businesses.

Suppose a woman works her way up in government and becomes social justice minister or something; and she's on Newsnight or whatever and the pundit asks her 'So what are you going to do about the homeless problem?' and then she says 'Well, we;re going to so all we can to help homeless women, but as men raped us for hundreds of years the men can just suck it up'. I mean, are you seriously suggesting that is what she should say? If so then that is not feminism ....that is just, insane.

Who knows what women would have done if we had any power? It's pure speculation, because we didn't!

I mean, are you seriously suggesting that is what she should say? If so then that is not feminism ....that is just, insane.

I'm pretty sure Sparrowhawk was making a rhetorical point. You are very literal aren't you?

My opinion is he just wants to derail threads and use them to attack women (or feminists).

This notion was invented by men to keep women in the home.

Yes. And we're still living in a patriarchal society so we navigate the world in a certain way.

Yes he's a fan of the merail, undoubtedly.

OK, but there is no good reason to assume that they will behave differently - and the few women who have had a serious level of political power have not been great. Or at least for every Sonia Gandhi there's a Margaret Thatcher.

To conclude that women are nobler than men you would to have first concluded that they are innately different - which goes against everything feminism is supposed to be about, does it not?

I'm pretty sure Sparrowhawk was making a rhetorical point. You are very literal aren't you?

You would think, but I honest to God don't think she was.

Women are held to higher standards than men, it's not surprising that to get to the top you have to be more cutthroat than men.

Well quite. Men have constructed this system which demands people have to be 'cuthroat' in order to 'get to the top' as you so perfectly put it. So what do you do? Do you accept the system and try to fight your way to the top? Or do you reject the system along with the very idea of 'getting to the top'.

This is the big question.

I think both ways of navigating a society that unfairly disadvantages women are valid, personally. We have to operate within a set of parameters and are culturally conditioned to accept it.

You don't have to accept what you've been culturally conditioned to think at all.

Bloke tells women not to be constrained by cultural conditioning but also to be nice and kind to men at all times in any and all roles they may hold. On a feminist board. My word!

When did I say that women should be nice to men at all times and all roles? Just find the bit where I even implied that...

My opinion is he just wants to derail threads and use them to attack women (or feminists).
My opinion is you were closer to the mark the other night.
Thread has been worth it though for reading the awesome contributions from sparrowhawk, l0quacious and handbag. Now I have had enough of arguing with stupid so I'm done.

You guilt tripped women for not caring about men even though men in general don't give a fuck about us.

Where? The only thing I said along those lines was in response to Sparrow saying she didn't give a fuck if men were on the streets - which I said was not a very nice thing to say. Cause it isn't.

Perhaps you can lay out how men as a class support women to take opportunities to improve their lot and care about issues we face such as rape, domestic abuse and harassment, and while you're there tell us what you personally do to counteract these things?

And I don't want women to care about men. I really don't. Why on earth would I? I want a political and economic system that works for everyone - that gives everyone a reasonable standard of life whatever their gender, race etc.

Personally, I don't want anyone's sympathy. I want a job. An affordable house. Good mental health care. Free education. Whether women or men are the people in government making that happen is of absolutely no interest to me whatsoever, I assure you.