A conundrum

[cafeaulaitpourvous]

If a non binary /a-gender person needed a refuge..... where would they go?

Even if they were ‘assigned female at birth’ being a-gender means they don’t have a gender so they couldn’t go to a women’s refuge as that wouldn’t correlate with their a-genderism.

Would going to a women’s refuge make them hypocrites?

You can identify as agender or non-binary and acknowledge you are female.

Sex is biological- male or female.

Gender is societal - the way you are supposed to present based upon your biology.

So a female identifying as agender or NB could go to a female refuge without compromising their identity.

You aren't assigned a sex at birth, you are born male or female.

You are born either biologically male or female.

Women's refuges are there because women, as a biological sex, are often at risk from biological men.

So in your example, she could go to a women's refuge if she was at risk.

lmfao, how on earth can sex be assigned at birth? You either is or you ain't a male or female. (Intersex are a tiny % and more complex)

I think you all might’ve missed the ‘quotation marks’.... I don’t agree with the ‘assigned at birth’ bollocks... I am not here to be laughed at. I am just pondering. I am an older woman with a gay daughter and I am frightened for women’s future and the way patriarchy is muscling it’s way into what’s left of our safe spaces.

I do feel we are falling down a deep rabbit hole and the result is going to be catastrophic for women and society as a whole.

It reminds me of a book I read when I was about 12 - it’s called Knots by RD Laing..... look it up.

Women's refuges only exist because women campaigned for them and raised funds to finance them.

It would be great if the trans lobby would get behind campaigning and funding for refuges for trans people, wouldn't it?

The Green Party have made this issue incredibly simple for us. We now have two categories of humans
MEN
NON MEN

Non binary, gender fluid are non men. Along with women and MTT

(Sarcasm)

cafeaulaitpourvous

It is indeed a rabbit hole of a mammoth proportions.

I'm not sure how non-binary people talk about what sex they are.

I also don't quite understand why they are always included when transactivists talk about trans. Because to me, it's the opposite of trans.

But, I guess, if you have an 'internal essence', that can be male or female or neither? Somehow.

If a non-binary person needed a refuge, they would need one based on their sex. Demonstrating how and why sex over-rides general identity, every time.

Them wanting to go to one of the opposite sex is what presents the problem. If they do. I can't imagine a woman doing that. But I can imagine a man.

The thought that just came to my mind, is where is the transition, in trans ideology, take place, if indeed biological sex is 'irrelevant'? There would be nothing to transition from if biological sex is 'irrelevant'.

Or am I being a bit thick?

Or is trans not short for transition? Is it more synonymous with 'beyond'?

Them wanting to go to one of the opposite sex is what presents the problem. If they do. I can't imagine a woman doing that. But I can imagine a man.

Yes.

I'm not sure how non-binary people talk about what sex they are.

I had a boggling argument with one on twitter. I don't want to out myself so can't link to it but he basically said he wasn't protected by anti discrimination legislation as he didn't have a sex(!?)

ponderingprobably

That's how the narrative has changed. It used to be that they were transitioning from male to female. Now they were born female, because their sex is determined by their brain, not their biology.

It's re-writing language. From the bottom up.

Sex IS your biology. That's what it means.

I've really been trying to understand NB identity as I think there is a lot of cross-over with feminism ideologically.

I've been told that being NB is a gender identity but has nothing to do with gender roles or gender presentation or biology but although people are very clear on the terms gender identity, gender roles and gender presentation and what they mean, no one is able to tell me what gender is to them.

I don't understand how you can have a gender identity without being able to define what it is that you are identifying with (or not).

Asking this question apparently means I should go educate myself. Which is what I was trying to do.

Way too much circular logic for my poor brain.

jellyfrizz

I agree. Being non-binary sounds very feminist to me.

But only in terms of rejecting stereotypical gender roles.

You can have a non-binary gender. I.e. you don't identify with the gender roles.

You can't have a non-binary sex. Because your biology doesn't listen to you.

You can't have a non-binary sex. Because your biology doesn't listen to you.

Yes, and I think this is where the GRA is totally wrong in allowing people's gender to be a legal reality, it's a belief, an identity, not a biological fact. I think gender identity should be like religion, protected and obviously important to that person but not the basis to change history or definition of words.

You can't have a non-binary sex.

Well, unless you are intersex, a hermaphrodite. Wow, in terms of trans ideology what definition would these people come under, could someone be intersex and trans?

I know I am a woman but I don’t wear makeup, I ride a massive motorbike and I am presently digging holes on my allotment.

According to trans ideology I must be a bloke....

Confused? You will be!

ponderingprobably

You do get people who are intersex but also trans. Though it's rare. But that's not the significance of intersex in this issue.

Intersex people are constantly brought up to disprove the binary.

The argument is that intersex is an anomaly, a disorder. That having a person born with one leg doesn't make humans not bipedal.

That intersex is not a third sex.
The uk Intersex society have repeatedly asked not to be co-opted by transactivists to disprove the binary.
And that being intersex doesn't mean you are trans, it's apples and pears. And if you're born intersex, you will die intersex. You can't change sex.

None of which matters to transactivists.

"There's such a thing as intersex! Chromosomes mean nothing! Gotcha!"

It's tedious.

There aren't trans people identifying as intersex are there?

Also, hermaphroditism isn't just a stigmatising term/politically incorrect synonym for intersex, but rather biologically incorrect. Intersex describes genetic/chromosomal/hormonal variants. Hermaphroditism is where an organism has both male and female sex organs that are fully functioning (snails/slugs/plants); this isn't possible in mammals.

The co-opting of intersex experience, as Datun says is tedious; it's just a continuation of the word play and logical fallacies that combine snippets from wikipedia genetics pages with two or three sentences from Judith Butler that lead to transwomen = women = female. I'm sciencey and I am well aware and work against the problematic idea that science is this pure, linear, objective revolution, but it certainly doesn't work through gotcha algebra.

I'm baffled how a relatively small subgroup of a subgroup of people i.e. TAs can get so much purchase over the minds of so many.

Then I think of WACO, the Moonies, Manson etc. and perhaps it is not so baffling after all.

hingedspeculum

I have seen trans people claim they are also intersex. But, forgive me, I didn't believe them. (Someone sciencey came along and the person disappeared).

It might be possible to be both. But I'm not quite sure how.

Either way, it's piss poor behaviour to keep using intersex people to strengthen your argument that you can change sex.

Sorry, hinge, I just don't know all the correct terms. Thanks for telling me.

My point was, what would be trans for an intersex person, in terms of trans ideology? Identifying as one sex or the other? But since biologically they have physical characteristics of both sexes would identifying any way in terms of gender(?) be trans?