I feel a bit sad today

[drspouse]

Dropped off my DD at nursery. She chose some really funky new trousers today - they have a really bright, cute cartoon print, an unusual one, harem style, really bright cuffs. Really striking and she loves them, she's only just grown into them. Nobody else has anything even vaguely similar (OK I am a little proud of that part!).

As she was being dropped off another girl came in wearing full princess outfit. Tiara, dress, wand that she couldn't get through her coat sleeve. Two other girls had put on frilly skirts from the dressing up box and the staff were all making a fuss of their outfits, oh how pretty, oh you're a princess, oh are you a ballerina?

I am torn between "you shouldn't make a fuss of girls' appearance" and "why are you only making a fuss of girls wearing princess outfits?".

In the past, they have made a fuss of her appearance (and of course of other things she's done) but generally she only gets called "pretty" if she's wearing a dress, or has her hair done. Boys of course don't get called pretty or even, frankly, handsome. My son wore similar trousers (not these ones) and people have commented on them, mainly slightly surprised that they were so bright! I don't think anyone has ever called him "handsome" or even "good-looking" though they may have said his trousers were "nice" or "cool".

One of the other little girls was wearing a grey tracksuit but she'd also come over to show what she was playing with (toy phone) and nobody praised her for her pretend play.

(They are all 3 - last year before school - if that's relevant).

I am considering talking to the director about this (it's a big workplace nursery, not part of a chain, Outstanding etc etc).

The motivation is kind of irrelevant, though, as the children don't know that is the motivation.

My DD has had lots of "oh how pretty" comments on dresses or hairstyles. Not dressing up clothes.
And my DS had some "funky/cool" comments on regular clothes. Though never "pretty" or "handsome".

PS Jassy will you come and work in my DD's nursery I'm sure you have a much more well paid job.

PS Jassy will you come and work in my DD's nursery I'm sure you have a much more well paid job.

I can only do short bursts! I love kids of that age and they respond well to me but I have total respect for the people who do it 10 hours a day.

Why? Why is one thing they enjoy and use to express their personalities inferior to another? Is it really their personalities or just the latest fashion their friends have got. Ultimately being too over invested in your own or other's appearance is on the road to disappointment as far as I can see, they can never be as perfect as the so called celebrities, the celebrities aren't even that!

Maybe they were commenting just because those girls had dressing up outfits on and the other children were just in their normal clothes?
That's a good point. What would the reaction have been if say a boy came in wearing a robot outfit.

OP, it sounds like you're more disappointed than your daughter regarding the attention she got, it's also sounds like you really put a lot of thought into those trousers, picking them out, waiting until they fit properly, liked the fact they were unique/striking/original, no one else has them and then expecting to get a reaction from people. Then when it didn't happen, let down. All this due to a pair of child's trousers, it's mad.

Peace it has nothing to do with the pair of trousers. I just mentioned it as an example of things that don't get commented on. It would have still been really really obvious to me if she'd been wearing all navy (and it was obvious that there was no comment on the clothes of the girl who was, in fact, wearing all grey with trousers and looked to be perfectly dressed for Forest School and climbing. I was very close to commenting myself on that girl's clothes but I don't know her name).

My DD gets told she's pretty - but only pretty - not "funky" or "cool" or the "boy" compliments - and only when she's wearing dresses or has her hair done.

Boys don't get told they are "handsome" or indeed pretty, whatever they wear.

And the comments were on appearance not on activities, or effort/achievements/imagination.

I think you've missed the point a little. Or, in fact, a lot.

Is it really their personalities or just the latest fashion their friends have got.

At 3 and 4? Much less so than later, in my experience. It's the time when you see little kids in tutus, wellies and capes all at once. I think it's much better to help them find their own choices and preferences and confidence in how they dress at this age, when they still have much more confidence in their own choices, than trying to do it later.

My kids' clothes are definitely half their personalities, half what I'm willing to buy them. I'm now seeing with DS1 (6) a sense of keeping an eye on what his peers are wearing but at the same time able to articulate 'that's not really my sort of thing' or 'I like bright coats better' or whatever it might be at that point. And then he'll be back to asking me if his shoes look fast, because stripes look fast. When he was littler it was definitely much more related to his immediate interests.

Ultimately being too over invested in your own or other's appearance is on the road to disappointment as far as I can see, they can never be as perfect as the so called celebrities, the celebrities aren't even that!

I don't think that anyone is advocating being overinvested in appearance - quite the opposite based on this thread! I think it's a bit odd to conflate that with being interested in what your clothes look like, and I'd much rather support my kids in finding their own style and being confident in it than being sucked into celeb culture and fast fashion. We all have to wear clothes - I guess it's a bonus if we enjoy them and they make us feel good.

Where I do think it goes wrong is when enjoyment of those clothes is conflated with gendered 'prettiness' for girls - which is much more about their actual appearance and less about what their choice of clothes means to them.

The only reason for mentioning the trousers was - that yes, the girls in the shiny dresses were striking in appearance. But so were other children in nursery this morning (including my DD). Some were strikingly bright, some strikingly practical-looking, and I'm sure some had striking character/logo tops etc. But only the strikingly "pretty" girls got comments on appearance. And they were only comments on appearance.

Do children need a sense of style?
It's all alien to me, my sons grown up now but had very little interest in clothes, still hasn't. I understand it takes all sorts to make a world though.

The equivalent, then, would be if the boys were only ever praised for being strong or for not crying.

Do children need a sense of style?

No. But if they're interested, I'm not going to stop them figuring what they do and don't like and developing an idea of their own preferences early, as well as delinking from physical appearance.

It's not your bag. I get that. But some people, and some kids, get enjoyment from it.

For all I know DS2 will be like one of my brothers and have zero interest. Right now, he's particularly chuffed when his outfit features penguins or a gruffalo, and he seeks out penguin pyjamas. I have no problem with him reflecting his toddler interests through what he wears as long as it's clean and appropriate to the weather and activity.

I only comment on my female friends appearence when they're 'dressed up' or have had their hair done though- because it's out of the ordinary and when someone is dressed up it's usually for an event so you comment on how great people look don't you? I do.

And I would comment the same with children who are 'dressed up' either in a dressing up outfit or a special outfit for a party or wedding or whatever.

I do frequently tell my young male family members that they're handsome if they're dressed up for a party or something though. And I did tell a colleague the other day that her 6 year old son is pretty - because he is! That's the kind of language I use though. I didn't mention that out of the blue, it was a conversation being had with several people as we'd met him at a team event and literally everyone that came in the next day said 'oh Jack (not his name) is soooo cute and I said yes, very pretty! I'm hoping now that no-one thought I was weird saying that about a boy!

And to be fair - I'm sure I'd have commented on your DDs trousers and said they were lovely or snazzy (I like that word )

Allthelights.

You've kind of missed the point here. There is no issue with commenting on appearance but it is sad if it is the ONLY thing you comment on. And it's also sad if it only gets said when someone is in a stereotyped outfit. And if it's only girls who are told they are pretty - they take in the message that they are only worth something if they are pretty and they are only pretty in a dress.

Good on you if you tell boys they are handsome or pretty - but that doesn't happen often in other circumstances.

I only comment on my female friends appearence when they're 'dressed up' or have had their hair done though- because it's out of the ordinary and when someone is dressed up it's usually for an event so you comment on how great people look don't you? I do.

Maybe I'm an outlier - I'll often comment on a really nice or interesting dress, or tie, or scarf, or whatever. A colleague was wearing a really gorgeous dress covered in tiny stars the other day, the fabric was gorgeous so I mentioned how much I like it.

But actually, when small girls are dressing up, should it be about appearance ('pretty'), or about the activity (as we'd be more likely do with boys dressed as superheroes or whatever?)

I haven't missed the point I don't think. Appearance isn't the ONLY thing I comment on but I do comment when it's an occasion or something out of the ordinary. So if a child of either sex is dressed as a ballerina or Batman I'd say 'wow! You're a perfect Ballerina/Batman!'. I wouldn't say the same to a child in leggings and a T shirt because they're dressed in clothes that aren't inviting a comment. That doesn't mean I wouldn't think they look great but there isn't that 'out of the ordinary' mental prompt that would make me think of saying something.

And yes, I might say I like a friends jacket if I do but I wouldn't say 'wow, you look amazing or beautiful' when we're all dressed in jeans or leggings and looking exhausted. But if it's a party or a black tie event or a wedding, people do comment on appearence in a positive way don't they? Because it's out of the ordinary and people are dressed up. When I normally see my friends in leggings or jeans and we go to a 'do' with nice outfits and hair done we all say to the other that we look fab, beautiful, stunning or whatever.

And you're saying your DD only gets 'pretty' comments when she's had her hair done or wearing a dress. I think it's because it's out of the ordinary and it's generally polite to say something complimentary about their appearance when people have dressed up or had their hair done isn't it? And that doesn't mean I think people should be judged solely on their appearance - and I don't do that. But you only have to look on threads on MN when people are upset that their DP/DM/DC/Friends don't seem to acknowledge (with the implication that they don't care/don't take much notice of the OP as a person) when they're dressed up or had their hair done or 'made an effort'.

Or do I just go to the wrong weddings and parties where no-one ever says anything about how great other people look? No-one seen a male family member or friend in a suit when you normally see them in joggers or jeans and said 'you look really handsome?'

I do.

drspouse I think it's great you not only noticed but challenged this with the director. This kind of thing can become ingrained so young as often well meaning people default to praising girls for being "pretty" and so instilling then reinforcing the idea that their worth is their appearance, being "pretty" is what gets positive attention and so this is desirable and the most important thing for girls. It's quite clear girls' appearances are commented on far more often than those of boys, as continues with older girls then adult women compared to men. It's definitely a big issue and I hope you get a positive response.

I think JassyRadlett's ideas for responses to children in a variety of outfits were great, though!

Allthelights But this wasn't a smart occasion. And I don't let DD wear her best dress to nursery. She, and other children, wear non-best but fun and notable clothes to nursery. Commenting on them is fine. Commenting only on princess dresses and only saying they are pretty is not fine. Failing to comment on anything princesses, fairies, or ballerinas can actually DO is way way off fine.

Ideally parents and play workers should play with children, rather than comment on the appearance of the play or outfit.

Between two and three all children parallel play. And they do not discern between toys at that time if given free reign. Girls will happily drive endlessly around whilst boys sort out the kitchen. And they all love the slide and the playhouse. It's getting them to do muddy play that's the problem simply because it means getting a bit messy. They do not make friends then. Even if they see another person daily. The focus, quite rightly, is their parents at that point.

You child sounds great and at such a young age too.

Nearly all children are happy to parallel play at that time. Some have serious issues with it (my son did), others are simply happy to sit on the side line and join in now and again.

Children at that age are choosy about what they wear, but that's their choice. Adults who take care of them, should never reinforce them. Unless of course they want to wear their bathing suit when it's snowing outside!

Adults who take care of them, should never reinforce them. Unless of course they want to wear their bathing suit when it's snowing outside!

Never?

As I've said, I have boundaries related to weather and activity. Within those boundaries, I'm happy to let them express their preferences. They're not clones of DH or me and they're allowed.

Not sure if I missed it but how did it go with the director OP?

Can't seem to post!

It went pretty well, thanks. She says they do take it seriously but agrees that it can be easy to forget and will try and emphasise it further in training.
I just think they need some pointers on talking about children's appearance.

OP I agree with you completely.

Is anyone else bothered by the phoniness of comments like this, in addition to their sexism? Why not talk to kids with a bit more sincerity, less of an exaggerated and supposedly "child-friendly" tone, more genuine engagement?