I feel a bit sad today

[drspouse]

Dropped off my DD at nursery. She chose some really funky new trousers today - they have a really bright, cute cartoon print, an unusual one, harem style, really bright cuffs. Really striking and she loves them, she's only just grown into them. Nobody else has anything even vaguely similar (OK I am a little proud of that part!).

As she was being dropped off another girl came in wearing full princess outfit. Tiara, dress, wand that she couldn't get through her coat sleeve. Two other girls had put on frilly skirts from the dressing up box and the staff were all making a fuss of their outfits, oh how pretty, oh you're a princess, oh are you a ballerina?

I am torn between "you shouldn't make a fuss of girls' appearance" and "why are you only making a fuss of girls wearing princess outfits?".

In the past, they have made a fuss of her appearance (and of course of other things she's done) but generally she only gets called "pretty" if she's wearing a dress, or has her hair done. Boys of course don't get called pretty or even, frankly, handsome. My son wore similar trousers (not these ones) and people have commented on them, mainly slightly surprised that they were so bright! I don't think anyone has ever called him "handsome" or even "good-looking" though they may have said his trousers were "nice" or "cool".

One of the other little girls was wearing a grey tracksuit but she'd also come over to show what she was playing with (toy phone) and nobody praised her for her pretend play.

(They are all 3 - last year before school - if that's relevant).

I am considering talking to the director about this (it's a big workplace nursery, not part of a chain, Outstanding etc etc).

Just wanted to add my voice saying that you've really hit on something small and fairly subtle which absolutely epitomises the sort of sexism which starts at 2 or 3 or even younger, and leads to girls 'naturally' preferring to dress up, play with dolls etc.

I think definitely have a chat with nursery lead about it. They probably don't realise they're doing it.

My DD's nursery often comment on her clothes but they're rarely princessy, they're a really mixture. I'm interested to see if my son gets similar comments when he starts there in 6 months...

From your post at 10:33 it sounds like they're generally good at gender stuff. So maybe this is a snapshot taken out of context and out of proportion.

I know it's not great but it's generally considered polite chit chat to talk about someone's appearance when you first see them especially I think fancy dress. I imagine the praise for imaginative play comes later in the day. You cannot micro manage everything that is said to your child and it wouldn't be a good idea to do so. Like pps have said getting the right messages from home will make more difference than interventions with nursery staff, who you have said are already better than most about gender issues.

Well, I noticed the second episode expires in two days - so I forwarded the link to the director.

It's not just "comment on appearance first". Nobody ever said my DS looked handsome, and nobody says my DD looks pretty if she's not wearing a dress/has her hair done.

The two girls who'd dressed up, had been there maybe half an hour (we were among the late arrivals) and were wearing dressing-up-box clothes. Not morning choice of outfits. And nobody commented on any other child's appearance.

And yes, they are generally good. But it's a case of WHEN they comment on appearance, this is how they do it - and when it's appearance vs other things, appearance seems to come first.

I'm confused. I thought you said one of the girls couldn't get her coat off due to the wand, so had just arrived.

I would comment on fancy dress outfits rather than ordinary clothes. I think that is normal.

It all depends on how much they comment on boys in fancy dress, which is hard to tell from a snapshot.

So it's more about catering to the kid and their interests/needs Yes but I think encouraging it is exasperating the problem, better I think to try and minimise and steer towards other interests, boost their confidence that way. Try and teach that they don't need validation from other people, especially through the way they dress.

Sylvia yes, one of the girls had just arrived. The others were already there and dressing up.

None of the other new arrivals got comments on appearance, and the other pretend-player got no comments on what they were playing with.

I mentioned to the director that the teacher in the documentary had no idea he was treating the boys and girls differently as it's something we all may do without noticing.

And I know how hard it is - I try to comment on each of my children equally but sometimes if one of them springs to mind first, the other one gets a really clumsy comment! E.g. if one of them tried hard to do something but the other one found it easy I try to think of something else to say instead but it's often a bit dredged up!

But the other new arrivals were not in fancy dress.

So all you really have is a situation where a nursery worker did not respond to a child holding a pretend telephone.

Which they probably should have done, but it must be hard to respond to the pretend play of all children constantly.

OK I agree with you that it's not good. I have worried before about the misogynistic bullshit my parents come out with all the time. But kids are going hear and see this stuff if not at nursery, from grandparents, or other parents, or the kids of those parents or the TV or adverts-it's everywhere. All we can do is say the right things at home and when they are old enough encourage them to think critically.

Also as someone who has worked in customer service under several different managers they always tell you who made the 'anonymous' complaint.

better I think to try and minimise and steer towards other interests, boost their confidence that way.

Why? Why is one thing they enjoy and use to express their personalities inferior to another?

I agree that we can fetishise clothes for girls - but I don't think the answer is to deny their interest and importance to some people altogether.

I don't agree with telling really small kids that what they're interested in isn't valid or needs to be suppressed unless it's immediately harmful or dangerous. I don't think clothes fall into that category. So if a kid is dressing up, it's fine to engage with them on the basis of what they're dressed as. If a kid is wearing something that signals an interest or expresses a facet of their personality, it's fine to engage with it.

'Hey, Lucy, new trainers! They're so bright they make me think of shooting stars. Do they make you run faster than a shooting star?'
'Alex! New Minion shirt, love it! Which one is your favourite?'
'DS2, you have a bowl on your head. That's amazing. I bet it protects your head really well when you bump into walls.'

The third one may be just me.

The problem comes when it's used to reinforce gender stereotypes, rather than being part of all children in a more gender neutral way.

There are many problems around clothes, commenting on them etc.

It's one of the reasons schools have uniforms.

DD and DS were in school nursery, so never had this whole issue.

Which they probably should have done, but it must be hard to respond to the pretend play of all children constantly.

True - but it's one for staff to be aware of, if the stereotypically gendered play gets greater engagement (and engagement in a gender stereotypical way) on a regular basis then children will conform to the types of play that get them engagement and encouragement.

In a different context, DH and I were talking about this today. DD (2.5) loves getting dressed and loves compliments. Her standard every morning now, as soon as she's dressed, is to run to show off to Daddy. Doesn't matter what she's wearing, she dashes over for his approval. DH and I were discussing today whether somehow we're accidentally teaching her that her clothes are very important to get (male) approval.

But, while DS isn't interested in clothes except that they're comfortable, we do regularly comment on how nice he looks or how cool his t-shirt is or whatever, so at least from that perspective OUR response is the same for both children. But our question is how much of her actively searching out approval is natural and how much is something we've somehow built into her?

On the other hand, she also spends lots of time running to show us how good she is at playing with her toys or walking her toy dog and she gets equal praise and love from us for that.

But it is a worry. I don't want to be accidentally setting her down a certain path.

No, Sylvia, we have a situation in which:
Girls wearing frilly skirts/dresses had their appearance commented on. Using only the word "pretty".
None of them were asked about activities associated with those outfits (no "can you twirl", "does your wand change me into a frog", "are you in charge of the kingdom like in Ben and Holly?").
No other child doing an activity was asked about their activity, even the one who thought her pretend play item was notable.
No other child (boy in new/logo/character shirt, girl in funky trousers, child in good outfit for playing in the mud) was asked about their appearance.

The ONLY fuss made was about girls in frilly skirts or dresses and ONLY about their appearance.

And my DD has never been called pretty wearing anything other than a dress or a hairdo (i.e. it's not just a one off).

But then all they could do was drop the word pretty. Apart from that the staff just stated what the girls were dressed as.

Sorry, crossposted, that was to Jesse.

No, they didn't "state". They made a huge fuss, naming all the items in the costume, using an exaggerated tone of voice "Oh you're not a PRINcess you're a ballerEEEna".
And they didn't "state" for anyone else's appearance or activity.

DD and DS were in school nursery, so never had this whole issue.

I don't think school uniforms are a particularly neutral choice - DS1 and his mates are full of opinions about shorts v trousers, whether your shorts have a button or a slip, dresses v pinafores for the girls, etc etc. And I'd say they're probably more gendered, as a whole.

However, my DS1 is able to maintain his interest in what he wears on weekends and during holidays, when he doesn't wear uniform.

You can still tell a girl her hair is pretty, even in school uniform...

Okay, OP, your first post said:

'...oh how pretty, oh you're a princess, oh are you a ballerina?'

So they did say something other than commenting on prettiness.

Neither of those comments are on activities though and it's not an exact repetition of what the girls said nor of what the staff said. I can't remember exactly and it's not really the point, but it was something like
Oh A you're a PRINcess, you've got a WAND! and a TIARA! Wow! How pretty!
B "I'm a princess too".
Oh B YOU'RE a princess TOO! How PRETTY.
Oh look C is a princess TOO!
I'm a ballerina.
Oh you're a ballerEEEna! You're pretty TOO!

It was a couple of hours ago and I don't have a perfect memory. So shoot me. But I was listening to see if they turned it around into anything relating to abilities or activities or anything relating to other children.

I will admit that my default when small girls accost me to admire their princess costumes (DS1 and his nursery gang have always deeply committed to dressing up) is to say something like:

'Oh how fabulous! What a great princess! Do you have any superpowers/what are your special skills?'
Some small girls totally buy into it, some scoff that princesses don't have superpowers, but generally cheer up when I mention Elsa.

That was my thought Jassy with the fairy outfit and the fairy godmother skillz.

Maybe they were commenting just because those girls had dressing up outfits on and the other children were just in their normal clothes? To be honest, I'd probably comment if a child had a dressing up outfit but I wouldn't comment on a normal outfit I don't think.

I noticed this when out and about with my boys when they were younger. I would always dress them nicely but if we were with friends who had daughters it was always the girls that got the fuss about what they were wearing, how pretty they were, how wonderful their hair was etc!!! It used to annoy me as I felt my boys were overlooked even though they were in fact more gorgeous (mother's opinion of course!!! ;) ).