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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The End of Men?

77 replies

Gentlemanjohn · 12/09/2017 09:37

Just happened on this provocative article. Hanna Rosin asks “What if the modern, postindustrial economy is simply more congenial to women than to men?”

www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/07/the-end-of-men/308135/

Earlier this year, for the first time in American history, the balance of the workforce tipped toward women, who now hold a majority of the nation’s jobs. The working class, which has long defined our notions of masculinity, is slowly turning into a matriarchy, with men increasingly absent from the home and women making all the decisions. Women dominate today’s colleges and professional schools—for every two men who will receive a B.A. this year, three women will do the same. Of the 15 job categories projected to grow the most in the next decade in the U.S., all but two are occupied primarily by women. Indeed, the U.S. economy is in some ways becoming a kind of traveling sisterhood: upper-class women leave home and enter the workforce, creating domestic jobs for other women to fill.

She goes on to say that during the recession “three-quarters of the 8 million jobs lost were lost by men. The worst-hit industries were overwhelmingly male and deeply identified with macho: construction, manufacturing, high finance. Some of these jobs will come back, but the overall pattern of dislocation is neither temporary nor random. The recession merely revealed—and accelerated—a profound economic shift that has been going on for at least 30 years, and in some respects even longer.”
This is partly because “The postindustrial economy is indifferent to men’s size and strength. The attributes that are most valuable today—social intelligence, open communication, the ability to sit still and focus—are, at a minimum, not predominantly male.”
This is not to argue that woman do dot continue to have it bad in all sorts of ways, only that in the late capitalist bureaucracies they in certain ways have more power than men. In the future we could be living not in a world of gender equality, but matriarchy.

The article also ties in nicely with a piece on the unemployment crisis in the US rust belt that has primarily affected men, leading to an epidemic of suicide and opioid abuse.

www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/05/men-women-rust-belt/525888/

Any thoughts?

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AlternativeTentacle · 12/09/2017 09:39

Any thoughts?

Do you not have any?

Gentlemanjohn · 12/09/2017 09:43

She has a point, certainly.

I think women continue to suffer all sorts of insults in other respects (sexual violence and cultural sexualisation), but in economic terms it is is in some respects better to be a woman than a man in 2017.

If I could choose the sex of my child on the basis of how successful it was likely to be, I would opt for a girl.

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AssignedPerfectAtBirth · 12/09/2017 10:17

Hope it isn't the end of men as I quite like my husband and sons and would like to keep them

NYConcreteJungle · 12/09/2017 10:19

I thought this was about the scientific breakthrough, allowing two women to reproduce.

AlternativeTentacle · 12/09/2017 10:21

but in economic terms it is is in some respects better to be a woman than a man in 2017.

Is this opinion on the basis of one report?

Have you checked out who wrote it, and where the evidence is from? Who paid for this report/article?

Do you really think is it better financially to be a woman than a man? Do you really think that women earn more than men or there are more females working than men? Do you see this with your own eyes in your own town/city?

SpaghettiAndMeatballs · 12/09/2017 10:21

economic terms it is is in some respects better to be a woman than a man in 2017

I don't think that is the case at all. Women are underpaid compared to men in similar jobs, they do the bulk of the unpaid caring labour required in a society, the bulk of the work required to run a house, it's still very common for a woman to give up work or go part time when a family has children leaving herself extremely disadvantaged economically. In the event of a split women do much worse than men financially, the majority of people in poverty in the UK (and world wide) are women and children.

In what way does that make it better to be a woman economically in 2017?

Gentlemanjohn · 12/09/2017 10:32

In what way does that make it better to be a woman economically in 2017?

I'd say they have more access to employment, even if it's poorly paid employment. Female unemployment rates are consistently lower than male.

They're much more likely to succeed academically.

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Gentlemanjohn · 12/09/2017 10:33

And millennial women are out-earning men.

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AlternativeTentacle · 12/09/2017 10:36

Where is your evidence of this?

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Gentlemanjohn · 12/09/2017 10:38

money.cnn.com/2016/04/12/pf/gender-pay-gap/index.html

And this.

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AlternativeTentacle · 12/09/2017 10:40

'Of course, the women who earned the most in this study were young, single and childless, and lived in metropolitan areas. Married women outside of those city centers earned less.'

So you are basically saying young, childless, unmarried women in cities are more likely to be earning more than they would have been able to earn in the past.

Great news.

I am just going to find your thread about how you were worried about women when men were earning more, I may be a while.

Gentlemanjohn · 12/09/2017 10:42

Oh yeah there's a class dimension, definitely.

But I'm saying literally the best thing to be in terms of potential academic and financial success, is a young, intelligent, middle-class woman.

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Gentlemanjohn · 12/09/2017 10:44

I am predicting that in a few decades women will dominate the professional class in western, capitalist metropoles - not men.

In fact, I'd say this is inevitable now.

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Walkingdead11 · 12/09/2017 10:46

As long as she's childless that is.

AlternativeTentacle · 12/09/2017 10:47

But I'm saying literally the best thing to be in terms of potential academic and financial success, is a young, intelligent, middle-class woman

Young, intelligent, middle-class, unmarried, childless, city-dwelling woman you mean?

Can you link to that thread of your concerns about women and the concerns over their earning potential - ta.

Or are you only 'concerned' now that the tiny sector of above mentioned women might look as if they are out-earning some men?

SpaghettiAndMeatballs · 12/09/2017 10:59

I'd say they have more access to employment, even if it's poorly paid employment. Female unemployment rates are consistently lower than male.

Do you have any evidence of this at all? Female unemployment rates are consistently lower because once they're full time caring for someone (unpaid) they don't count in the stats.

Minimum wage jobs in my experience are no easier for women to get than men in my experience.

Women have been out-doing men academically for a fair few years, and yet still, we're not even equally represented in management. I don't think your prediction is accurate at all.

makeourfuture · 12/09/2017 11:04

The American middle class (working class in UK speak) is undergoing a profound change.

And I think, and this is an opinion, that younger US women have a slightly different view of motherhood. Having one child is seemingly looked down on in the UK, whereas I cannot recall any sort of negative connotation back in the States.

makeourfuture · 12/09/2017 11:11

Too, I think that America's post-war economic position allowed a great many males to forego higher education. To even develop a sort of anti-intellectualism.

whoputthecatout · 12/09/2017 11:16

Women outdoing men academically is nothing new. In the 1950s when I took the 11+ exam girls had to achieve a higher pass mark than boys to enter grammar school. This was because the authorities wanted a 50/50 ratio and it would have been something like 55/45 if they had gone strictly to results.

But, as I recall as a women in the 1960s struggling for fairness and equality and equal pay at work, our academic achievements counted for sweet FA.

I am rather fond of my DH of 50+ years marriage and would hate to see your headline come true (fat chance of that anyway), but I find that men losing some of their privileges is perceived by many men as the "triumph" of feminism and the doom of men, whereas it is merely one stage in the long march to equalising opportunities for women.

makeourfuture · 12/09/2017 11:40

Another thing to remember about female academic achievement in the US at university level is that student loans work differently there. And a bachelors degree is a four year programme, with post grad work becoming more and more a requirement for a decent career. So for Law that is seven years total....Medicine tennish. An MBA five or more.....

These high-flying young women are carrying perhaps $100k debt (held perhaps by some really vicious lenders) at sometimes punitive interest rates.

Maternity leave is different. Vacation time (often used more for life requirements) is less. It is not smooth sailing for them at all.

Gentlemanjohn · 12/09/2017 12:12

The question is this: Why would men continue to be dominant in a post-industrial economy? What economic worth do they have? In the past, they were required to lift big iron girders and drill ore and do lots of macho stuff that required superior physical strength. Patriarchy also took the form of the state militarist order, with national armies of men needed to defend the nation state. Throughout much of Europe, military conscription was compulsory. This marked an initiation into adulthood and the world of work, in which the man stayed for the rest of his life. For women, it was marriage. Now, in a globalised world, state armies are not required. In their place either small, all but privatised militias, or technological/cyber warfare. Neither is the family required. Women are more profitable out of the home, and a new job market in childcare fills the gap.

So the patriarchal militarist/industrial order is over. Where does this leave men?

As the article makes clear, what are (rightly or wrongly) understood to be female attributes (and often feminist values) are more highly valued by postmodern capitalism: communicability, fluidity, emotional intelligence - all very much in line with the tenets of open market economics and the 'sharing economy'.

I don't know if you've noticed this recent spate of films like the '40 Year Old Virgin' and all those Judd Apatow movies that typically feature guys trapped in a kind of perpetual adolescence? These men are not dominant figures, but total clowns. They sit around smoking weed, playing video games, making crude jokes, messing about and are total losers who work at Walmart or somewhere; and then some woman usually comes along, takes them in hand and sorts them out. Typically, she's everything they're not: sensible, industrious, with a good career etc.

Well I think those films are quite telling. It reminds me of a book by the philosopher Alain Badiou who writes about the different ways in which late capitalism impacts on the sexes. He says that once women were subjugated with dualistic hegemons into divided entities.They were either mothers or whores etc etc While the man represented what Badiou calls 'the One' - the hierarchical, symbolic order surmounted by the ultimate oneness of God. Women were kept hidden, Badiou contends, because they (and I love this observation) were proof that God does not exist and the hierarchical order was counterfeit. Why do you need a transcendent creator when you have a terrestrial one?

One of Badiou's sons got mixed up in some minor trouble, and it resulted with him surrounded by all these administrators, social workers and therapists who were predominantly women, kind of taking him in hand maternally, but also coming across as very hard and officious. Badiou argues that this new female administrator could be a new 'One'. In other words, rather than gender equality, what could transpire is a new bourgeois female domination, with a world of predominantly female managers and administrators and legions of hopeless, economically obsolete men. Thus, late capitalism is more congenial to women than men in some ways. Men are perpetual adolescents, while from a young age girls are precociously driven to achieve.

He entreats women to resist this form of corrupted empowerment in favour of a truly transformative feminism (which I have to say is very poorly defined).

Anyway, I see this happening. I've worked in education a bit and the difference between the sexes in terms of achievement and drive is striking. At my local cafe frequented by students, I see endless girls who all look like Saffron from Absolutely Fabulous, all hammering away on Apple Macs, a pile of books by their side, with total, uninterrupted focus. By the time they’re 24 they’ve got doctorates in environmental science or something.

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Gentlemanjohn · 12/09/2017 12:13

but I find that men losing some of their privileges is perceived by many men as the "triumph" of feminism and the doom of men, whereas it is merely one stage in the long march to equalising opportunities for women.

I don't think men losing their jobs is a stage on the path towards anything good.

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squishysquirmy · 12/09/2017 12:23

I would hope that as what society and the economy requires, men (and society's notion of masculinity) will adapt so that men are not left behind. This is just another example of how toxic masculinity can be very damaging to men as well as women.

Hopefully skills like communication, social intelligence etc will become more valued by men but unfortunately I fear it will take time, and there will be a backlash against it (eg, complaints about "real men" being replaced by "metrosexual men" and all that bullshit).

Gentlemanjohn · 12/09/2017 12:23

And this is quite a good piece on male unemployment.

www.newstatesman.com/blogs/economics/2012/05/why-isnt-male-unemployment-issue

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