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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The End of Men?

77 replies

Gentlemanjohn · 12/09/2017 09:37

Just happened on this provocative article. Hanna Rosin asks “What if the modern, postindustrial economy is simply more congenial to women than to men?”

www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/07/the-end-of-men/308135/

Earlier this year, for the first time in American history, the balance of the workforce tipped toward women, who now hold a majority of the nation’s jobs. The working class, which has long defined our notions of masculinity, is slowly turning into a matriarchy, with men increasingly absent from the home and women making all the decisions. Women dominate today’s colleges and professional schools—for every two men who will receive a B.A. this year, three women will do the same. Of the 15 job categories projected to grow the most in the next decade in the U.S., all but two are occupied primarily by women. Indeed, the U.S. economy is in some ways becoming a kind of traveling sisterhood: upper-class women leave home and enter the workforce, creating domestic jobs for other women to fill.

She goes on to say that during the recession “three-quarters of the 8 million jobs lost were lost by men. The worst-hit industries were overwhelmingly male and deeply identified with macho: construction, manufacturing, high finance. Some of these jobs will come back, but the overall pattern of dislocation is neither temporary nor random. The recession merely revealed—and accelerated—a profound economic shift that has been going on for at least 30 years, and in some respects even longer.”
This is partly because “The postindustrial economy is indifferent to men’s size and strength. The attributes that are most valuable today—social intelligence, open communication, the ability to sit still and focus—are, at a minimum, not predominantly male.”
This is not to argue that woman do dot continue to have it bad in all sorts of ways, only that in the late capitalist bureaucracies they in certain ways have more power than men. In the future we could be living not in a world of gender equality, but matriarchy.

The article also ties in nicely with a piece on the unemployment crisis in the US rust belt that has primarily affected men, leading to an epidemic of suicide and opioid abuse.

www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/05/men-women-rust-belt/525888/

Any thoughts?

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makeourfuture · 12/09/2017 13:47

But, you're assuming that the majority of men in the future will live in houses and have partners

You are hitting on big topics...

I am baffled by this phrase "forever home" I keep see popping up. I don't know if that sort of concept can endure. Because we are seeing now so much movement and shifting relationship. Gig economies and career breaks...

The "property ladder" at least has a sense of motion and change to it.

What is this thing called retirement I read about? This idea that at 50 you get to play golf and jet around?

AlternativeTentacle · 12/09/2017 13:51

I'm 37 and share a flat with a 23 year old girl who isn't my partner.

The word you are looking for there is woman. 23 year old woman.

Flyingflipflop · 12/09/2017 13:57

The end of men?

Hope it's not before Christmas as my wife can never reach to put the fairy on top of the tree.

Gentlemanjohn · 12/09/2017 13:57

Apologies Alternative, my bad. She seems so young. And she's on twice as high a wage as I've ever earned, or will ever be likely to earn.

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AlternativeTentacle · 12/09/2017 14:00

Apologies Alternative, my bad. She seems so young. And she's on twice as high a wage as I've ever earned, or will ever be likely to earn.

So this is what the thread is about - you are jealous of a woman that has the misfortune to live with you.

Gentlemanjohn · 12/09/2017 14:04

Totally make.

This thing of a home populated by a family unit headed by a monogamous couple, one of both of whom has a stable career - is going.

We will I believe revert to collectives (lots of people sharing tenements, or even communes) or a kind of nomadism (mobile homes, temporary rental accommodation, Airbnb kind of stuff).

A house and a job for life will be an elite privilege.

So this feminist thing of a guy at work, earning loads of money and a woman stuck in a house doing all the housework. Fear not - this is not how it is going to be for most people in the near future.

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Gentlemanjohn · 12/09/2017 14:10

Ha ha, I'm truly not jealous of her. I couldn't do her job.... I'm just pointing out that her and my situation would have been unthinkable even thirty years ago. Or very rare....Or thinking about it, maybe I am jealous of her a bit. That's only human. I'm kind of quite jealous of anyone who earns 30K a year.

But the point is it is now very common for women to be earning more than many men. And that's a good thing on one level...but it does mean that the debate surrounding gender and power has got more complicated.

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FeedMeAndTellMeImPretty · 12/09/2017 14:15

Oh god, I was actually reading these comments with some interest until the whole "mansplaining feminism" post.

Thanks for coming here to tell us how good we've got it, how we've got feminism wrong and that as long as we are single, childless, middle class, young, city dwelling, and probably white too women have it better than men. Good to know.

Gentlemanjohn · 12/09/2017 14:20

FeedMe, I would say that even if you're a working class woman you're in an economic sense better off than a working class man - as the male unemployment stats attest. You're also less likely to be a rough sleeper. Far less likely.

I am absolutely not saying that all women are better of than men in all regards. You're kind of straw manning me there a bit I think.

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jellyfrizz · 12/09/2017 15:19

john I suggest you look at the employment stats rather than the unemployment stats to get a clearer picture.

This ONS analysis is from 2013 but gives an idea of why just looking at unemployment rates doesn't give a clear picture:

www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/articles/womeninthelabourmarket/2013-09-25

Puffpaw · 12/09/2017 15:53

John you basically came on here moaning about capitalism, and how it is now feminists responsibility to fix it. A system that has been created under the patriarchy and is supported by male violence. How about men fix that.

Your posts are long winded, mansplainy and rather boring.

Puffpaw · 12/09/2017 15:55

When did I say that women created capitalism or deny the existence of a war economy? Can you please stop imputing things to me that I have not said.
Didn't say you did. You might get a pay rise if you improve your comprehension skills.

Gentlemanjohn · 12/09/2017 16:22

Puffpaw, the mercantile and industrial forms of capitalism that prevailed from the seventeenth until the twentieth centuries were indeed male dominated and depended upon the subjugation of women. However, I maintain the new phase of capitalism into which we are moving is not patriarchal. In fact, it will undermine male dominance - in certain key respects at least. It will not be driven by the production of goods, but the administration of services and data.

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Puffpaw · 12/09/2017 16:33

I disagree. Male dominance is a result of male violence, I don't see that declining, nor do I see reasons for its decline in the future. Automation is already being used as a tool to support male violence, e.g. Drones.
Could a woman control a drone, sure, but

  1. If a man walked in and wanted to wrest control of it through physical force he is more likely than not going to be able to.
  2. Women are still socialised not to pursue careers in robotics for example.
AlternativeTentacle · 12/09/2017 16:49

However, I maintain the new phase of capitalism into which we are moving is not patriarchal. In fact, it will undermine male dominance

Then you are deluded. Seriously, this is a ridiculous argument.

I really really wish it were true though. Anything that undermines 'male dominance' is a good thing.

Gentlemanjohn · 12/09/2017 17:29

AlternativeTentacle it is already happening. This is what the Trump backlash is a consequence of. I mean it is happening very slowly, but it is happening. Female wages and workforce participation are increasing, and male declining.

Puffaw male dominance is not a result of male violence. It is the other way round. Violence does not come form in a social vacuum.

That's like saying white dominance is the result of white violence.

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ladyballs · 12/09/2017 17:33

I'd like men to stick around but I'd be happy to see the end of mansplaining.

thedancingbear · 12/09/2017 17:33

So this is what the thread is about - you are jealous of a woman that has the misfortune to live with you

I don't agree with much of what John is saying, but this is unnecessarily horrible. Really fucking nasty.

AlternativeTentacle · 12/09/2017 17:35

I don't agree with much of what John is saying, but this is unnecessarily horrible. Really fucking nasty.

Why mention that the 'girl' earns more than him then? I think calling women 'girls' is really fucking nasty. But hey ho.

makeourfuture · 12/09/2017 17:36

It will not be driven by the production of goods, but the administration of services and data

If I could add: banking/finance. I think that money movement is now the power. Why build something or employ anyone when your new algorithm can make more by shifting assets.

thedancingbear · 12/09/2017 17:36

I'm not interested in a discussion with you. I can do without being abused too.

AlternativeTentacle · 12/09/2017 17:46

I'm not interested in a discussion with you. I can do without being abused too.

'Or thinking about it, maybe I am jealous of her a bit. That's only human. I'm kind of quite jealous of anyone who earns 30K a year. '

Ahem. Pointing out the obvious is not abuse. But don't let that stop you.

jellyfrizz · 12/09/2017 17:52

That's like saying white dominance is the result of white violence.

Errr, how do you believe white dominance came about then?

Puffpaw · 12/09/2017 18:23

ok john please explain how you think male dominance came about, if not through male violence.
I'm not here to talk about race.

makeourfuture · 12/09/2017 18:36

I think violence is behind all control.