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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

I was this morning struck by a piece of extraordinary irony.

46 replies

BertrandRussell · 31/08/2017 09:02

We live in a world where anyone deciding to identify as female is accorded the immediate courtesy of female pronouns. However a woman wishing to be known by the honorific Ms often finds it very difficult, with reluctance from colleagues, no space on official forms and general misunderstanding and occasional mockery......

(I have another 5 hours in hospital waiting rooms today.....!)

OP posts:
MilkTwoSugarsThanks · 31/08/2017 09:05

I've never had a problem using Ms, and I've never filled out a form where Ms wasn't available.

Confused
MilkTwoSugarsThanks · 31/08/2017 09:05

5 hours?

Have Brew&Cake.

DancingLedge · 31/08/2017 09:12

5 hours _ you need Classics. CakeFlowers

I've always been Ms, and nowadays never seems to be a problem. I dislike being asked to define myself by my marital status.

MorrisZapp · 31/08/2017 09:15

I see your point but I must admit that the pronoun thing only exists in my world as an amusing story. I've never heard it spoken of in real life. I live in a diverse city but I'm pretty sure anyone announcing their pronouns round here would be met with complete incomprehension. It's only really a thing in university unions etc isn't it.

VestalVirgin · 31/08/2017 09:25

It's only really a thing in university unions etc isn't it.

People talking in that idiotic way, yes, but the laws that are being changed to take away women's boundaries affect us all.

The fact that no one knows that the fuck the genderists are up to only makes it more terrifying.

Bertrand, how about you change to Mr once this self-identification nonsense comes? If you can't beat them, join them, as the saying goes ... Wink

Cake
SummerflowerXx · 31/08/2017 09:30

My personal bugbear is there not being Dr on a form, which is how I usually avoid the whole thing.

Elderly Korean Lady in Classics is a good read to pass the time

Twelvety · 31/08/2017 10:03

Or you could start something goady in AIBU. That would fill the time.

Original poster
BertrandRussell · 31/08/2017 10:09

"It's only really a thing in university unions etc isn't it."

No!

OP posts:
NoLoveofMine · 31/08/2017 10:51

Many women have problems using "Ms" from what I know, with banks being reluctant at best, titles being automatically changed to "Mrs" if they marry, banks etc insisting they must be "Mrs" with a different surname to their own (husband's surname), "Miss" or "Mrs" being default titles (I can't see why either of those should exist, there's no reason for any title other than "Ms" as female equivalent to "Mr) and so forth. I've never been addressed "Ms" anywhere even though my younger brothers are already both "Mr" on any correspondence they get. I need to start changing my title to "Ms" - the only reason I hadn't was until a thread on here not long ago I thought "Miss" was correct when under 18. However, given boys/men don't have to make an effort to change their title to "Mr" anywhere, nor should women to "Ms".

DJBaggySmalls · 31/08/2017 10:53

I've had people openly take the piss when I've told them its Ms.

ScrambledSmegs · 31/08/2017 11:20

I go by Ms but the bank insists that I'm a Mrs. There also seems to be an assumption (at least amongst most people I've met) that Ms means divorced and it seems to blow everyone's minds that I'm happily married.

MorrisZapp · 31/08/2017 11:43

Bertrand, I'm the biggest Spartacus going, but I haven't yet had anyone announce their pronouns to me. Has this happened to you or anyone you know? In a non university or online context?

Original poster
BertrandRussell · 31/08/2017 11:45

Yep. Two people in our circle now identify as women.

and you could have knocked me down with a feather when they did too

OP posts:
NoLoveofMine · 31/08/2017 11:49

There have been cases which have gone to court with men "identifying as women" and being tried and reported on as women. There's also a highly regarded girls' school which lets its pupils "identify as boys" resulting in them being referred to as "he" and with their new "male" names which a fair few of their pupils are now doing. It's rather disconcerting.

Original poster
BertrandRussell · 31/08/2017 11:49

But I was more thinking about officialdom than anything else. On the other thread about Ms, people are saying that some banks and so on haven't let them be Ms.women have been fighting this one as long as I can remember. But it seems to have taken about a year for getting pronouns wrong to have become completely unacceptable.

OP posts:
chips4teaplease · 31/08/2017 11:52

I was this morning struck by a piece of extraordinary irony
Better than being struck by a piece of extraordinary ironwork.

purits · 31/08/2017 11:52

They are probably confused by the concept of "Ms Bertrand".

VinsArmy · 31/08/2017 12:08

I keep ticking the Ms box when filling out forms, joining or applying for anything. Only my place of work writes to or emails me as Ms Vin, everywhere else including the doctors I have just joined and the new school have changed this to Miss Vin

thatstoast · 31/08/2017 12:12

Yeah. I won't open the aibu thread because I can't face reading the same arguments about how Ms is for bitter divorced lesbians or whatever.

I do know that I had to request Ms to be added as an option to my organisation's forms. They'd remembered Doctor and Reverend.

What also annoys me, but not directly related, is male/female drop down boxes when all other options are arranged alphabetically. It should be Female/Male.

Mum2OneTeen · 31/08/2017 13:20

I've been Ms since the 1970s. Never had a problem with it that a stern hard stare won't solve. If people want to see it as a signifier for my sexual preference, political persuasion or anything else, that is is their problem and nothing to do with me. In other words, as the old adage says, what you (or anyone else) thinks of me is none of my business.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 31/08/2017 16:13

Had a massive argument with my bank circa 1994 or so. They refused to acknowledge me as 'Ms'. In the end, I got an account without a title at all. I still have it, although I later added my professional title to a newer account. I do agree with you Bertrand, there is much eyerolling when women want gender neutrality, but MtTs get what they want with a click of their XY chromosomes fingers. And yes, I have had the 'pronoun thing' thrown at me.

SenecaFalls · 31/08/2017 16:47

Yeah. I won't open the aibu thread because I can't face reading the same arguments about how Ms is for bitter divorced lesbians or whatever.

And don't forget "militant feminists," (like that's a bad thing). Smile

You can play Ms bingo on that thread and get a full card in no time.

conserveisposhforjam · 31/08/2017 16:52

I have problems finding Ms on forms all the time. Latest was our local trampolining centre where you HAVE to register online (and where I am now known as Dr Conserve).

CatalpaTree · 31/08/2017 17:12

The best problem I ever had was an employer calling me to say my DBS had been held up and there was a problem with it but the agency wouldn't disclose to my employer what the problem was. I was mortified as had obviously told them there wouldn't be a problem with obtaining a DBS.

Called them up and found the problem was that they could find no record of my divorce and this was required. Need to me given I was single at the time and never married!

Turns out as I'd ticked Ms in the form (which I've been since my teens), some nitwit and changed my answer I marital status from 'single' to 'divorced' as only divorced women are called Ms!

Took months for the DBS to come through because of this error being 'in the system' already and I nearly lost the job.

Temporaryanonymity · 31/08/2017 17:18

In 1997 I had a very dull job typing letters to employees of the company I worked for. I called everyone Ms or Mr. I had so many complaints from all the women who were married and each time I explained that I didn't have access to their marital records or preferred title. Most calmed down then but I had no idea until then how anti Ms most people are.

I secretly enjoyed it though. As I said, it was a dull job.

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