Susan Nicholson case - heartbreaking

[HeatedCatFurniture]

I've read bits about this before but this article sets it all out in detail.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/aug/28/the-police-knew-another-girl-had-died-in-his-bed-robert-trigg-susan-nicholson

It's appalling. Those poor women, those poor families - and that elderly couple, spending years and £££ bashing their heads against a brick wall of indifference from the police.

And so many of the officers named in the article are women, too.

Today 13:56 Elendon

With him standing there as well Datun It's incredible to think this is how family violence is treated. I think this is family violence. Domestic implies that it is a woman and a man who are having a bit of a barney. How we all laugh. Not.

I'd go one further. And call it male violence. And if that pisses off the men, I'd be more than happy to separate it into male and female violence.

True Datun

I'm actually fed up with the soft touch on this. Female and Male violence may well be categories for the police to consider. However, I would posit that if those categories existed then you would see a rise in female violence because being a nag can be classed as violent (in the response of the male being violent to her).

Reasonable grounds for previous acts and behaviour

You simply cannot arrest for that. You simply can't. The law doesn't work like that.

it seems the thread is now moving onto DV so I'm going to bow out. My entire reason for posting here was to explain legalities and procedure. I genuinely believe that this was not a case of laziness or misogyny (and to the pp who states they have recently started to work for the police, you need to sort your attitude out. Most DA victims need the police for the here and now. They don't want us to come in and turn their lives upside down. When their partner is arrested the enormity of it all sinks in, they're even more frightened. I don't care how many times they call, we arrest and they subsequently withdraw their complaint. If they need help it's there. Even if it's just to give them one night of respite whilst we lock him up)

Can you explain why, if the police did nothing wrong, there are now three separate reviews taking place @Rodhullsvaerial?

The thread was always about DVA. It's what killed Susan Nicholson, and, despite the fact that two women a week are killed by a current or former partner, and that a previous partner of the man in question had also died under hinky circumstances, no one bothered to look into it a bit more deeply.

You can bring someone in for questioning (not arrest) on those grounds. If you have suspicions. And bloody hell there were more red flags on this than in a Chinese political convention.

My entire reason for posting here was to explain legalities and procedure. Yeah coz the little women couldn't possibly know about that!

What a horrible case. Those poor women and their families.

it seems the thread is now moving onto DV

This is a case of family violence by men that has led to death; it happens twice a week in the UK.

The investigative report highlighted the failures in police procedures and the obvious fall out. It also highlighted that if it wasn't for the fact that the dead woman's parents spent thousands on pursuing the case it would never have been brought to court and Trigg would still be killing.

My entire reason for posting here was to explain legalities and procedure. Yeah coz the little women couldn't possibly know about that!

1.You're assuming I'm male

1. Given most of the posts on here, then clearly some women don't know about that

So you arrest if someone is beaten up but wont arrest if someone has died? Hello?

How dreadful.

Given most of the posts on here, then clearly some women don't know about that

Well there you go. How presumptuous of you to think such things, not knowing anyone's background as to why they are posting on here. And have I used the word arrogant? Let's put that into the mix of your misogynistic posts as well. I'm shocked you deal with these situations to be honest.

If I was a magistrate I would be having words.

Why are you not answering questions about why there is a review of police procedures Rod?

So you arrest if someone is beaten up
Sometimes Yes, sometimes no.

but wont arrest if someone has died? Hello?
Again sometimes Yes, sometimes no.

Have a look at Code G of PACE. It's not me making these rules up. You either want the police to act within the law or you don't.

Let's put that into the mix of your misogynistic posts as well
Show me one misogynistic post I've made in this thread. Just one

So someone has died in a house. The police are called, by a neighbour, because the person who was there didn't want to. The neighbour had already phoned the police previously because she suspected the now dead woman was being beaten up by the man who told her she was now dead.

And your first thoughts are?

Your posts are misogynistic because you refuse to see it from a woman's point of view. You really are giving the impression you don't like women very much.

I'm not talking about an 82 year old man who finds his wife of 35 years has died beside him in bed.

Or a sixteen year old lad who can't wake his mum up.

Please understand there are differences.

Two days after Nicholson’s death, DI Barrett had spoken with a senior officer about the possibility of arresting Trigg – but decided that it would not be “advantageous” to do so

I found this the most chilling sentence of all. Advantageous? What advantage? And to whom? That word really does make it sound like the police felt it just wasn't worth the effort. Whys that, you wonder.

It would certainly have been "advantageous" to the other women he beat and abused subsequently.

It seems to me Rod that this was not investigated or arrested, not because the law was inadequate or because there was lack of evidence, or because the coroner made a bad call, but because the police took this man's story on face value and failed to do any investigating whatsoever

I wish this was rare. I wish this was a horrible fuck up and shocked everyone to their core.
Plenty of police KNOW there are people that should be arrested. Plenty of times they don't move forward for reason other than serving justice.
I can't go into detail (and don't need to, we all know someone) but it's heartbreaking.
I hate the term domestic violence btw. It's so demeaning. Nothing domestic about getting punched.

What a terrible case. And how awful for her parents but I respect them for keeping on and finally getting justice.

DV is not taken seriously by the police even now. I called the police as I witnessed a man beat his girlfriend in a public place. It was a GBH but when the police arrived, the PC swaggered up to me and said "It's a domestic love - they never press charges and she's not innocent as she's got an electronic tag".

Unluckily for him I knew the head of domestic violence at the Home Office who was able make the guidelines clear. CPS then charged him but offered no evidence at court as the victim didn't attend. CPS thought the magistrates wouldn't have believed me. CPS got s bollocking for that too, but it was too late - he'd already walked.

This is not a Police bashing post. I think they're great in the vast majority of circumstances but there is more work to do on DV/violence against women and girls.

Rod is a fucking tit.

Of course the thread is about domestic violence. Men who commit fb then go onto kill women many many times. Which the police in this case didn't get and neither do you Rod.

If that attitude changed then right here we would have two less dead women.

Dv not fb. Ffs.

Have a look at Code G of PACE. It's not me making these rules up. You either want the police to act within the law or you don't

I'm intrigued. Precisely which section would have prevented the arrest and questioning of Trigg?

Your posts are misogynistic because you refuse to see it from a woman's point of view
That doesn't make it misogynistic.

As it is, if this was a dead male in exactly the same circumstances (granted statistically very unlikely) I'd be saying the same thing.

The problem that I have outlined several times which is conveniently and consistently ignored is that of the PM.

Now some forces may do it slightly differently but it usually goes something like this;

The deceased is found by a friend/family member/anyone else.

They call an ambulance- ambulance control calls Police. They report to the police a "sudden death"

If the person is very dead i.e. clearly no life saving opportunities, then Ambo may refuse to attend at all, and police have to call either a local GP, or I've even known it to be through the 111 system for a approved professional to pronounce death.

Response officers attend. They survey what's in front of them. Are there any signs of a struggle? Is anything out of place? No? Then they move into the next stage.

The body is searched (No matter what the state.) Obviously if there is a fucking great knife in the chest it's left well alone and a scene watch is put on. The detectives come out in their lovely shiny suits and uniformed police get the glam job of standing outside in the pissing rain for days on end. If there's nothing out of the ordinary (remembering we're police officers not doctors so this isn't infallible) then we move on to the next stage.

A sudden death report paperwork is filled out to the coroner's court. This includes getting all the deceased details from a loved one and a statement identifying them is included. All the medication they take is outlined with the amounts which are left. Have they been Ill? Do they have any long term illnesses? Have they just come out of hospital?

A Sgt may or may not be called to the scene depending on the experience of the attending officers, however she/he ratifies the log saying undertakers can be called.

The deceased is escorted to the mortuary by police and signed in.

Now here comes the important bit. A post mortem examination is completed. This very clever doctor examines the deceased and tells the police what the cause of death was. Not being medical experts the police rely quite heavily on that information. If that expert determines that the deceased was not unlawfully killed nothing else happens.

Family members aren't arrested because of their past history.

Sofas aren't examined to see if two people can fit in them.

Previous history of police interactions with the deceased aren't recorded or seen as relevant. (Unless the deceased was recently involved with the police as a suspect)

If it is found that the deceased was choked/strangled/poisoned or any of the other delightful ways humans choose to kill each other, then Yes, a thorough investigation is started. The oft quoted stat that 2 women a week are killed by their current or ex partner? They didn't just walk up to a prison and hand themselves in. The police did the work. They put them before a court. Because we do fucking care. A lot as it goes.

Or alternatively I'm wrong now and I've been wrong all my career. All of you wonderful mumsnet members who have not investigated a sudden death and have no idea of PACE or police investigative practice have been told that It's a great big misogynistic conspiracy, the police dont care about dead women. And no one has told me at work because I don't have a penis. Bastards.