Why do I always lean for 'boys stuff' when trying to be gender neutral??

[FusionChefGeoff]

I'm sure it's not rocket science and is about conditioning, but I'm trying so hard to be as gender neutral as I can (DS5, DD2) and yet it is 99% me going down the boys route for DD (she does football, rugby, gets dirty, wears boys clothes, I call her 'buddy'!) - which inherently gives the message that boys are better???

She likes pink so often would choose 'girl's clothes but I can't stand most of it so usually buy for her and go for bright colours and mix of stuff.

BUT! I'm never tempted to get DS into 'girls' clothes to even the balance - as mentioned above, I can't stand most of it so find it hard to see when that would be an option.

PLUS - all the 'girls' stuff is so gendered ie. jeans with embroidery, T shirts with funny sleeves / much shorter and more fitted than boys stuff, I think it is much more likely that people (family and his friends) would comment very negatively. However, it is much more acceptable for DD to be wearing boys stuff...

On holiday, DS decided he wanted to buy some nail varnish so I embraced that and he got a lurid neon yellow and enjoyed painting / wearing it. But DH got very caveman about it - 'no son of mine is wearing nail varnish, he'll get teased' and so I put the view that this gives a message that girls and girl stuff is 2nd class - but then have realised I do this all the time with DD!

Can anyone help me articulate / understand this?

But it's not inherently girl or boys stuff, it's just stuff. I hadn't really thought about any of this when I had my first child, I instinctively bought her a mix of things, go kart, train set, a doll, etc. Just go with what they are drawn to, you don't need to prove a point by forcing them into things they aren't attracted to.

My parents had their failings, but they never forced the this is for girls/boys stuff, one of my favourite presents in the whole world was a chemistry set, just follow their lead.

Just go with what they are drawn to, you don't need to prove a point by forcing them into things they aren't attracted to.

I agree. Your DD likes pink? Let her have it. It's a lovely colour. You want to get across the message that there aren't "Girls' colours" and "boys' colours"? Entirely fair enough. But that doesn't mean your DD can't have a pink dress if she wants one.

It sounds to me like she would like to wear pink/more "girly" clothes and you won't let her? If so, that's unfair.

I buy clothes with no pictures or logos or applique etc. I don't put either of them in stripes. They wear fitted plain wool spencers every day, which are not the dropped sleeve boys' style or the gathered girls' sleeve. Jerseys are Fair Isle etc. Trousers are plain corduroy or linen.

Home made though.

ds is 12 and is very image conscious so wears what is in trend.

Dd isn't fussy about what she wears as she likes the clothes with flowers and butterflies but she will also wear her brother's hand me downs. Her favourite pair of jeans are a ripped pair her db previously owned. I also find that girls' clothes tend to be more expensive and impractical.

Take trousers and jeans for example, most shops only sell skinny jeans which she loathes as she says they stick to her legs and make sure it difficult for her to take off at the ankles. The only straight leg pair were embroidered and £4 dearer than the straight leg from the boys' section.

I never found girls' clothes more gendered than boys' clothes.

DS has lovely fitted girls' tops with ice lollies on when he was little. They were not pink, or frilly, or embroidered.

He also had some Etnies and vans t-shirts with pink on them.

I really dislike boys' gendered clothing - weapons, pirates, vehicles, over sized clothing that makes you look twice the size you actually are. In the seventies boys' tops were fitted.

There are plenty of gender neutral options in both boys' and girls' clothing sections.

She likes pink so often would choose 'girl's clothes but I can't stand most of it so usually buy for her and go for bright colours and mix of stuff

You have answered your own question. Exactly as you say - you are making value judgements that something is for girls and that makes it bad. Refusing to let her have pink is not gender neutral.

DS is the same age as your DS, OP. It's not just clothes - it's things like crafts, baking, toys, games and activities that develop social and emotional skills, books and tv shows that have girls as the main characters rather than just the cool friend/sidekick/girlfriend. Does he get that from you too?

I would say probably 90% of DS's clothes come from the "boy" section. We buy some stuff from the girl section for him - leggings, sometimes jeans, the occasional tshirt with animals he likes on it (according to clothes retailers, boys get dogs, crocodiles, sharks; girls get cats, bunnies, horses. Fuck knows who gets giraffes and elephants.) He sometimes gets girl trainers/boots because he loves glittery shiny stuff.

I am often depressed by the flimsiness and impracticality of some manufacturers' girl clothing - boys clothing has better fucking pockets for baby boys than I get as a grownup. So while I don't want him to associate girly=bad I also know that patriarchy="women are second class" and the lower quality of their stuff reflects that, so it also sticks in the craw to buy that.

Fucked either way. Basically the definition of the patriarchy, isn't it?

Pockets on baby clothing = our factory labour is so cheap we can get them to sew endless rows of unnecessary details and flourishes.

I agree Lass, we have to stop automatically thinking of girl stuff as bad. I do think current girl fashion is vile. My daughter only wears Liberty cotton frocks or white broderie Anglais. My DS1 is currently in a grey woollen blazer and white crocheted bonnet.

Missing the point, but; A two year old does rugby!?

Children needing to have favourite animals on clothing does, in a sense, groom them for trans ideology. Your personality must be externally expressed. It's really important.

I long for the universal leather overalls or whatever they were in More's Utopia.

*or children having any choicey imagery on clothes.

I've got boys, and my youngest loves pink, so I don't have any issue with getting him the pink version of whatever toy it is he's after, or pink clothes that are just clothes - eg. My eldest was very straight up and down with long legs for his height, and we found that the slimmer girls trousers are a better fit for things like cords and jogging bottoms (at least while they're the same shape - he's in 8 years now, so I suspect that'll change soon). The youngest has plenty of 'girls' pyjamas, and various t-shirts from the girls section (loves sparkles etc. not trousers though. Slim fit doesn't work for him!)

My problem at the moment is bloody frills - they're everywhere - 50% of the women's stuff was covered in them too, and I just can't stand them.

Prior to this frills phase, I'd just browse a store generally and pick up what fitted the bill - and like you, I like brights (including pink/purple - DS2 had a great t-shirt with an icecream on too!), I steer clear of generic messages (Daddy/Mummy's little whatever etc.), but have bought them stuff with paw patrol/minecraft/turtles/angrybirds/starwars/bighero6 whatever on if I liked it.

But DH got very caveman about it - 'no son of mine is wearing nail varnish, he'll get teased'

People have said that about various things either of my kids have done, and actually, they've never been teased (they're only young yet, and little kids seems to care a lot less about differences in my experience) - or when they have it's been strongly rebuffed by them and not happened again. I think my hope is to be able to grow strong children who would be able to cope with that teasing (DS1 is going to need some mental resilience, he is the type of child who over-thinks things), rather than force them to conform so they never get exposed to it.

It just appears so much gender neutral stuff is girls wearing traditional male clothing toys etc but hardly ever boys wearing even purple never mind pink and certainly not makeup or crafts etc it just seems to reinforce the idea that boy stuff good girl stuff rubbish.

Because by and large, there is no such thing as "gender neutral". There is boy's stuff that girls are "allowed" to wear/use/ play with, and there is girl's stuff, which is almost exclusive to girls.

Reading this, I do feel clothes for children are becoming more gendered stereotyped than ever before.
When my children were little in the 80s, there was an emphasis on primary colours for both. Firms like Clothkits sold 'unisex' children's clothing. When mine were teenagers, Eddie Izzard was cool. Most of my sons friends made a point of wearing nail varnish and gelling hair in a variety of styles. Today the collective MN dislikes Eddie Izzard but he opened the way for young men to wear lipstick, nail varnish and rebel against traditional 'manly' clothes.

I noticed as well that with groups such as Goths, they tended to wear the same stuff whether male or female.

I think activities like cooking, Lego bricks, drawing, cycling, swimming, hill walking are genuinely gender neutral. My dd and ds are equally into cuddly toys :-) I'm sure there are other things too.

I'm happy for my kids to wear gendered clothing as long as it is fit for purpose. Having said that I find mountain warehouse is great for colourful t shirts and fleeces etc suitable for all without being obviously boy/girl. Joggers/hoodies are good too and easy to buy in lots of places.

Interesting op. I have noticed this sort of thing too. There's a thread on aibu about gender neutral parenting where I tried to explain similar.

Parents will say they don't want their daughters in pink, frilly dresses but are far less concerned about their sons wearing blue jeans and a top with a tractor on it. It does seem to be the inherent idea that stereotypically girls clothing is inferior.

Fuck knows who gets giraffes and elephants

I bought DS a lovely yellow t-shirt with a giraffe on yesterday. Think it's unisex!

formerbabe yes that's the more theoretical point I was trying to make - not the specific point about clothes - but the subliminal message that by steering DD into the stereotypical boys things I am saying that girls aren't as worthy.

As much as we try, the market has STRONGLY created girls things and boys things. As much as say "there are just toys, not boys toys and not girls toys' my 5 year old is not blind - and there blatently ARE girls toys so how do we try to get round that?

Lego is a GREAT example - totally agree, and both kids like playing with it. However, the fucking society we live in has produced GIRLS lego - I refuse to buy that for DD, at the moment she is happy with fire engines and police cars etc - as she should be. However, am I giving her the message that girls aren't good?? Or am I just going with the idea that building static things (which most girls sets are) is not as much fun as things you can then move about and play with??

It's the theory I'm interested in - and how do you explain it to children?

DS is only 5 and still has VERY definite black / white about pink is for girls etc. so I am beating that out of him (joke) and often give him the pink plates etc. so that he can see for himself it's not. So actually, that's my small act of rebellion in the patriarchy and giving him the 'girls' stuff as gender neutral.

It's just fucking everywhere - it feels like such a hard battle to fight let alone win

bold Bertrand YES! That's it - so is that just a nutshell demonstration of the patriarchy? (I am new to this - can you tell

And I do let her wear pink - just not head to toe and not if there's a decent 'neutral' (ie. boys!) version eg. paw patrol (don't get me started on that but there's a great thread about that), mickey mouse. I also use it to deliberately 'tone down' the outfits that might make MIL explode when she's going there to visit / be looked after - so would put joggers and hoody with a pink t-shirt. Spider man T-shirt and a navy hoody? Pink leggings or 'girly' jeans.

But then I don't like that I have to do that!!

slightly BOOM - that's it. And "I don't know who gets the fucking giraffes and elephants" perhaps they will be good for the 3rd gender we're heading towards .

serf well, she runs around a hall with hula hoops, mini cones and tiny posts whilst occasionally picking up an oval shaped ball [girl]

On a complete aside, I was so proud that DH was watching the women's rugby world cup final yesterday and seemed genuinely as passionately invested in it as he is with the male game and didn't make one patronising "gosh, she's really fast" with a surprised tone. Maybe cos I balled him out for saying that about a female bowler he faced at a campsite cricket match recently.

Why do you need to push the child to be gender anything?
Can't you just leave him/her to choose the clothes and activities that it naturally likes, and be its own person as it grows up?