Why do I always lean for 'boys stuff' when trying to be gender neutral??

[FusionChefGeoff]

I'm sure it's not rocket science and is about conditioning, but I'm trying so hard to be as gender neutral as I can (DS5, DD2) and yet it is 99% me going down the boys route for DD (she does football, rugby, gets dirty, wears boys clothes, I call her 'buddy'!) - which inherently gives the message that boys are better???

She likes pink so often would choose 'girl's clothes but I can't stand most of it so usually buy for her and go for bright colours and mix of stuff.

BUT! I'm never tempted to get DS into 'girls' clothes to even the balance - as mentioned above, I can't stand most of it so find it hard to see when that would be an option.

PLUS - all the 'girls' stuff is so gendered ie. jeans with embroidery, T shirts with funny sleeves / much shorter and more fitted than boys stuff, I think it is much more likely that people (family and his friends) would comment very negatively. However, it is much more acceptable for DD to be wearing boys stuff...

On holiday, DS decided he wanted to buy some nail varnish so I embraced that and he got a lurid neon yellow and enjoyed painting / wearing it. But DH got very caveman about it - 'no son of mine is wearing nail varnish, he'll get teased' and so I put the view that this gives a message that girls and girl stuff is 2nd class - but then have realised I do this all the time with DD!

Can anyone help me articulate / understand this?

Maybe it's just because most girls clothing is unbearably hideous.

I just used to buy practical stuff for dd and a few nice things for best.
She used to like bright colours and was happy in jeans, joggers t shirt and hoody.
I wasn't trying to be gender anything.
Have things changed then? Are we supposed to make a statement with their clothes above practicality, what suits and their own choices.
I would have liked my dd to like the odd pink sparkly thing for a bit longer, she hated them after pre school.

One feminist blog I read stated that "men don't have gender. Gender is a thing men put on women before they consume us, like you put cheese on a sandwich" or something the like.

There is truth in that.

Clothes designed for boys and men tend to be practical and comfortable. Only seldomly is anything superfluous put on them to make them appear more masculine.

So, don't feel bad about buying "boy" clothes for your daughter if the girl clothes are skinny jeans, have superfluous pockets, are too short, etc.

Go for comfortable and practical.

If your daughter desperately wants to wear something pink and there's no comfortable clothes in pink, you could consider dyeing some plain white "boy" t-shirts.

Maybe it's just because most girls clothing is unbearably hideous

In your opinion.

This piece from the New York Times in 1993 is not about children but does fit here a bit - men can be neutral, women are always making a statement with their outfits.

This piece from the New York Times in 1993 is not about children but does fit here a bit - men can be neutral, women are always making a statement with their outfit

But I don't want to be "neutral" - how boring.

Might be nice to have the option some days.

Might be nice to have the option some days

Assuming your job description is not Vogue model - you do.

I really don't see the point of this woe is me , it is so hard being a woman exaggeration, You will see millions of women every day going about in jeans, sweatshirts, plain black trousers , plain jackets, trainers, flat shoes indistinguishable or virtually from clothes men are wearing - with no one paying a blind bit of notice.

Wearing clothes that are "indistinguishable from clothes men are wearing" IS making a statement, if you are a woman wearing them.

In my opinion, and in the opinion of the author.

You have a different opinion.

But this is a thread about children's clothes rather than adult clothes - I don't want to change the subject and I don't think either of us is likely to change their minds, so shall we leave it that we don't agree?

Well you introduced the article but you think wearing jeans and a sweatshirt or even tailored trousers and a jacket is making a statement? Given millions and millions of people of both sexes wear them every day? Sorry , but what century are you Iiving in?

You are right- you won't change my mind- it sounds like an enormous mountain out of a non existent molehill.

I do make judgements about mens' and boys' hobbies and clothing all the time, I am sure many other people do too.

I try as much as possible not to be judgemental.

But people think it is much more acceptable to launch into critiques of women and girls, and femininity to an extent that they do not critique masculinity.

When people critique masculinity, it's for the really big things like murder and war. They don't routinely criticise the cut of a jacket or the point of a hobby.

Which is kind of weird, because often brands worn by men get banned from bars and nightclubs, such is the danger associated with men who wear those bands. See also clothes denoting following a football team, or clothing cuts that could be interpreted as gay, or clothing that isn't form fitting so you look bigger than you are and is somehow deemed practical for playing and moving around (even though PE kit isn't baggy).

But we don't really critique it very much compared to femininity, because to critique what women and girls do is intelligent and informed, but to critique what men and boys do is rude and obstinate and mean spirited.

I don't know how we get around that without being more overtly judgemental about people's masculine parenting choices.

ALittleBitOfButter

Being gender neutral doesn't mean you have to strip them of a personality.

What if they want to wear colours? Stripes? Patterns?

I'm not sure if your post is serious or tongue in cheek tbh

I agree rhubarb, in my experience children love bright colours and patterns, both my son and daughter love dressing in bright colour. My 6 yo daughter has a more is more philosophy to dressing, the more patterns and pictures in an outfit the better. My son has commented that girls clothing is much more exciting than boys.

I have no problem finding nice, practical clothes for my daughter, she lives in leggings, t-shirts, hoodies and jumpers. Cotton jersey, comfortable, washable, available cheaply in most clothes shops.

Also I agree with lass, plenty of women dress in the same neutral t-shirt, jeans, trainers combo that men wear, but women have more options than men for making a statement with their outfit if they wish.

I think that "boys" clothes and toys can often be more neutral tbh, whereas the "girl" version is likely to start neutral and then have the frills added iyswim.
My DCs were each given giraffes (soft toys, not real ones ) when they were babies. DS's was orange (like a giraffe) and DD's was pink (cute, but not regular giraffe colours) so his was naturally the more neutral one, and hers was "girlyfied"
Had anyone chosen to give them "neutral" giraffes I'm guessing they would both have been orange, which would have been the "boy" one (or the proper one)

And I do let her wear pink - just not head to toe
Why wouldn't you let her wear all pink? Assuming you would be happy to let her wear all blue?
Not being critical, genuinely curious. Surely stopping it and actively choosing against all pink is the opposite of gender neutral.

I would buy the pink leggo too as I think it's good to have a mixture. Just don't make a big deal that it's 'girls' it's just toys. Sometimes the pink lego is good for play as it's pizza parlour/little houses etc that you can role play with the other lego.

I totally understand what you mean about the girls and boys clothes. My DD and DS love to dress the same and always ask for matching outfits. I always buy the boys stuff as it seems more neutral and also more 'acceptable' to put DD in obvious boys clothes - no one would think twice seeing her in boys joggers/hoody/Spider-Man trainers but people would comment if DS was in girls clothes. I annoy myself with it.

OP I understand exactly what you mean. Are we conditioned to see girls' stuff as inferior so we push them towards boys' stuff and therefore give them the inadvertent message that girls' stuff is inferior?

I don't think feminism has done this though. I've never gotten the message from feminists that girl stuff is inferior, rather it is men who have looked down on the frivolity of girls' toys , on small talk, on women's movies and literature - on all the things associated with women.

Feminism is, of course, about giving girls the opportunity to access boys' stuff (and vice versa of course) but equally it's also about elevating the status of that which has traditionally been associated with the feminine.

For example, some of the Barbie videos do, in between the nauseating pink stuff, contain admirable messages about friendship. The problem is stuff is so gendered that we cannot give one to the other without feeling that we are making a political point.

On another note, I remember reading a study that found that toys deemed as "moderately masculine" (eg. lego) were more educational than toys marked as for girls. So that also answers your question.

Surely though "not allowing her to wear all pink" is as oppressive and controlling as the gender expectations that feminists areattempting to address?

When mine were young they wore what I liked until they could choose themselves. It really wasn't a big deal. There was no hand wringing over what constituted gender neutral or whether pink was acceptable on girls. It seems that a massive issue has been made of this and anyone I know that is going down the gender neutral path seems to be of the "pink stinks" mentality; only on girls though!

I don't think feminism has done this though. I've never gotten the message from feminists that girl stuff is inferior

Really? I see it frequently on MN and FWR.

For example, some of the Barbie videos do, in between the nauseating pink stuff,

Would you describe a stereotypical boy thing as nauseating?

I know that is going down the gender neutral path seems to be of the "pink stinks" mentality; only on girls though!

I can't stand the "Pink Stinks" campaign. Oh I know if you look at their website it is all not literally blah, blah. Just a bit of a peculiar tagline if your aim is to fight gender stereotypes.

We're either choosing to fit in with expectations or actively go against them (actively, because they are so ingrained so it has to be a conscious choice).

This is from the other thread on clothes choices but I thought it was relevant here too.

Basically we've been backed into a corner. We either reinforce the patriarchal BS or we make a political statement by rejecting it.

There's nothing that is neutral anymore. It's either blue OR pink with very little in between.

When I was a kid I remember playing equally with cars and dolls. I loved lego and construction and science stuff. DB joined in with the teddy bear/dolls tea parties. I had some girly dresses for spevial occasions, but they weren't practical for playing, I could say similar of my wardrobe now a couple of nice dresses but mainly jeans and t shirts and smart suits for work. It never seemed a big thing and maybe co incidentally I went on to study science and work in a science related field (In a predominantly female science based proffession funnily enough)

As for horse riding at the lower levels it is prdominantly girls that seem to do it. We had a lot of boys who took lessons, but it tended to be girls who got the pony mad bug and wanted to get involved in the dirty side of looking after ponies. (Not girly girls tbh, no pink glitter hoof polish to be seen back in my day lol). At the proffesional levels male female tend to even out. We only had one lad with his own pony on our yard, he now represents GB internationally.

John Lewis are apparently putting all children's clothes in one area and labelling it as "clothes for children".

I think it's great Trills. Unfortunately though a lot of the real transphobes (ie not Terfs) seem to think it's a consequence of the trans lobby.

Rather the opposite in my opinion.

That's some messed-up thinking there.

I try to get my dinosaur loving DD dinosaur dresses, purple t-shirts etc, and I made her a digger dress (of COURSE you can't buy one on the high street), because I want her to be able to be a girl who likes dinosaurs/diggers.
Totally agree OP. I also get pink/purple non frilly tops for DS, he has a lovely Gap one with a sequined flamingo that's a bugger to wash.
I'm trying to teach them both to bake, will work on sewing next. DH, as an actual adult, has no problem with this.
DS has some motor problems, hates football but needs something to develop his skills. He's just started tap dancing and is looking forward to getting his noisy shoes.