Is there a name for this thing that seems to happen all the time on feminist threads? It happens on other subjects too,, but it's very noticeable on feminism.

[BertrandRussell]

Somebody will post about something they've observed. Something that only every happens to women, for example. Like being called a girl, as a 45 year old professional woman. And another poster will say that "Oh, people use "boy" to describe 45 year old professional men all the time"
Which is simply, observably, NOT TRUE.

On the thread about gendered endearments, people are suggesting that "mate" is non gendered.
Which is simply, observably, NOT TRUE.

Is there a name for it? If not, should we invent one? The Blinker Fallacy?

No, Copperbeech because you said you're 'struggling to follow what the issue is' - so I'm wondering why you want to talk about it, I guess.

because I am a feminist, and I want to understand what you are saying, but i don't, and I don't think it furthers the cause of feminism much if you tell someone who's experiences and opinions are different that their input is not valid and they should go away.

so you want women to say mate, pal etc more often? i'm really struggling to follow what the issue is

We want names to be evenly applied. That's all.

I'm hazarding a guess that you don't think it matters but consider the following:

-terms applied to boys are often about boosting their strength and confidence: champ, little man, mate, sir
-terms for girls are often focused on looks and emphasise good proper behaviour: pretty, little madam, love, sweetie.

None of these are inherently bad but when applied consistently by pretty much all adults they paint a picture and have an effect on that child's expectations of him/herself.

If you watch the BBC iPlayer's "gender neutral classroom" episode 1 you'll see how the discussions on MN came about.

Yes pigeon but people on MN are so dogmatic (that men never call other men love or women mate) it just grates my experiential cheese.

@ elfinpre your not even close it's 70/30 male/female convictions

Right, Copperbeech, I'll give it a go.

Men call one another 'mate', or variants. This can be done in a friendly way - or sometimes a menacing one, to imply strongly 'you are not my mate' - but most often, it's a man using it to a man he doesn't know, and implies parity and equivalency.

Men do not call women they don't know 'mate' - male mechanics, barstaff, retail workers, do not say 'what can I get you, mate' to women as they do men. Instead they use 'terms of endearment' to women such as love, sweetheart, darling. As do women to men and women they don't know.

The tendency for men to see men they don't know as mate, pal etc, and women they don't know as sweetheart, darling, love, suggests a certain imbalance in society which many people find problematic. Insisting that men and women in shops call other women 'mate', or that men do in fact call each other 'my darling' as they pull a pint, is nonsensical and seeks to deny there is a problem at all, which is itself a suspect strategy.

Does that help explain what people are bothered about?

My friend replies "well men are probably too ashamed to report being a victim".

That's the stupidest thing I have heard in quite a while! As if women who are kept prisoners in basements are even able to report anything at all!

(And while there certainly are male rape victims who are too ashamed to report - not surprising, because most female rape victims feel exactly the same - most of those were raped by men.)

Women would have to be criminal masterminds to be able to avoid being caught at so many crimes that the crimes actually committed by women would match the number of crimes men go to prison for. Never mind matching the rate at which men commit crimes.

And if women are such clever masterminds, then the claims that women are so scarce at the top of all hierarchies because there just happen to be not enough clever women, are even more ridiculous.

(But I guess the misogynists will claim that women are secretly running the world. There once was an evil dictator who claimed the group of people he considered subhuman was running the world ... well, he was lying.)

you want to be called "mate" more often?

to me, I am called it too often, it is disrespectful, it is something to tease someone with, my teens use it to me when being sarcastic, for example, in a semi affectionate way, sure, but it is not a nice term.

I have it used to me by strangers quite regularly, I don't think it is used less to woman than men, it is not a nice thing to say, it means anything from " I m doing my best to tolerate your incompetence" to "you are asking for a fight"

why insist that it is a sexist term when some people in some places see it as commonly used to both sexes. Why is it wrong to say that I disagree with you?

Why would you want it used to you anyway?

Seek-that's interesting, because according to past threads, men calling each other love is very common in Yorkshire.

"You still have not explained where the sexism is with the use of the word "mate" - I agree it is not a nice term, and normally used in a derogatory, even threatening way, but I have not experienced it being used in a sexist way"

I think the issue with "mate" is that it is one of the words that men use to each other, which, apart from when it's threatening, implies a level of equality. Parity of esteem if you like. The names men use to women usually don't- they often imply childishness, or inferior status.

I don't think it is used less to woman than men

It is, though.

I have never, ever, heard a man call another man 'love'.

Neither have I. I wonder if it's because a man using an affectionate term like this to another man could be vaguely interpreted as 'gay'/a come on etc. Which sounds ridiculous written down but I've known circles of men where having your sexuality questioned is the ultimate insult.

So a man to a man has to use a 'pat on the back' type term such as mate/buddy etc.

bert the only men in Yorkshire I have ever heard call a male 'love' are my dad to my brother in childhood, and my brother to his son.

It would not, and does not, happen anywhere else. But as I say - that's Yorkshire, not Derbyshire.

Copperbeech you seem intent on interpreting this as 'women want to be called mate, but mate is a disrespectful term so that's silly' - that's not what's being said.

Male violence - yes, most violence is committed by men.

Endearments from strangers are weird anyway, and generally anyone who uses endearments for strangers is unlikely to be thoughtful about their language.

The thread you are talking about was about people's direct reporting of their inner circle's use of endearments for children in the family initially though. It is pretty horrible to call people liars when they are simply responding by saying what they personally call their own children!

It is a good point that women are the ones using sweetie etc for their sons.

That does not mean that anyone reporting direct experience of a male family member calling a child mate is a liar because it doesn't fit the point of the thread. The OP was talking about her own husband. Other posters are surely equally entitled to post about their own direct experience.

I agree pointing out exceptions to a general trend is not always helpful, but it smacks of silencing to say women may never report that an example presented as "normal" isn't normal in all circles!

Addressing adult strangers with gendered endearments is offensive - but so is calling people liars if they post direct, personal, experience once which doesn't mirror the OP. It does put people off reading and posting to start a TAAT to say everyone is lying, rather than to say that the original post about endearments used for your own children wasn't really the issue and the wider issue is a general trend of using cutesy, infantalising endearments for adult women!

Copper beech:

I'd leave em to it, cock.

I think I'm guilty of this a bit, because often I'll read "this never happens" and I know for a fact it does, because I've witnessed it, so I feel compelled to say so.
This doesn't just apply to this forum by the way, but in real life, other forums, totally unrelated topics.
On this forum I might read "men never do this" or "women never do this" and, well they do.
Mostly I keep quiet about it because I agree with the premise of the post and don't want my post to detract from it, and also I don't want to derail the thread.

It's stupid @manclife because I think it's untrue. And, as has been explained on this thread, some women and men will always argue that the patriarchy affects men and women equally.

I'm 52 and I've never ever heard a man described as bubbly. Or feisty. Or virginal. Or coy. Or shrill. Or heard men call one another love.

Now obviously, that doesn't mean that it never happens but it happens so infrequently that raising it is just another NAMALT designed to shut down conversation about gendered language.

I agree that langauge is impportant and should be equal and often isn't.

I disagree that people who's experience is different to your s are to be sneered at.

Personally, I very rarely use a term of endearment to strangers, and if I do, it is the same one to everybody, young or old, male or female.

I don't think it is used less to woman than men

It is, though.

where you are, and in your experience, not where I am and in my experience, that does not give you the right to say my experience is invalid.

Not sure what I'm adding to the discussion here, but I remember the dry cleaner calling me mate and telling dh it made me think he was a good bloke. So I guess I'm saying it does happen but so rarely it is sort of the exception that proves the rule? And surely it also shows how low the/my bar is.

So my point stands then. Tackle the issue at hand not the one off personal experience of another. Just because you haven't seen/heard something doesn't mean it doesn't happen (however rare that may be) By denying another's experience you've lost the argument before it's begun. Accept what they're saying and move on.

The point I am making is not that everyone reporting their own experience is lying.

My point is that people are not just reporting their own personal experience and leaving it at that. They are saying that there is not an issue because the endearments are not gendered, and 45 year old men are routinely referred to as boys based on their own individual experience and refusing to accept that their experience is extremely unusual. My dp calls our 16 year old ds "darling boy" on occasion. I have never heard another father call a teenage boy anything similar, so it would be wrong of me to extrapolate from that single example.

There must be a name for the phenomenon of blokes deciding that they don't like women discussing feminist things on the Feminism board on Mumsnet and doing the merail thing on here. If you want a headcount of the men on mumsnet, you only need to start a thread in Feminism to flush them out.

You encounter few men in Weaning and Housekeeping. I will say that.

Next post: "How do you know? GigglyBrenda82 could easily be a bloke".

@popchyk would men be as welcome on weaning boards as they are elsewhere.

"By denying another's experience you've lost the argument before it's begun"

I'm not denying another's experience. I think I've explained my position. Happy to try again if I haven't made myself clear.

Eh?

But that is the whole basis of the argument. If someone comes on and says 'oh but men are regularly referred to as bubbly boys too' then how do you move on? It's totally designed to shut down the conversation