Other ways men dominate space, apart from the physical

[SpongeBobJudgeyPants]

Inspired by another thread. I was in a coffee shop recently, empty apart from female friend and I , and two blokes who were cleaning the windows. Both occupied opposite ends of the room, and rather than actually move towards each other to have a conversation, they shouted, over the top of us, and our conversation, meaning I was actually shouting to continue the conversation...this seemed preferable to what would have meant silencing us. So I started off thinking it was about space, but the natural consequence would have been for us to have been literally silenced...which is more worrying.Anyone got any further thoughts on this?

I'm guessing that they didn't even consider that you were there, never mind that you would actually want to sit and talk/listen with your friend.

Did they do anything when you started shouting? Did they even notice?

I don't actually know Fruit. I think I was too intent on not being shut up, after a lifetime of that sort of stuff. They just feel entitled to do it. Even if you take male/female politics out of it, it's just really bad manners.

Yes definitely. Were they members of staff or just contractors? If staff you would think they wouldn't want to put customers off like that. Good on you for shouting and not giving up.

I've had builders in my house for about two years (and not for a fun reason).

All sorts of different things.

I almost fall at the feet of the ones who are tidy and unobtrusive and just get on with it.

Because most of them yell at eachother from one end of the place to the other, constantly asking for tea or make hacking thirsty noises, which is totes hilaire obvs. And positively demands my thin lipped attempt at bantz.

It's exhausting. I go out.

I had plumbers in to fit a new boiler. Two young lads who put their radio on full blast the minute they arrived. It was that to them it was obviously "their work space" rather than my home.

I put their lack of consideration down to their age rather than sex but it's difficult to know.

Sorry for garbled sentence! It was obvious that to them it was their work space not my home.

I think that men just do things at their sound level and not bother about anyone else. Its the same for women though. Quiet train carriages but drinking wine and screeching loudly at each other. Screaming at kids on public transport. Screaming for kids across two aisles in the local shop. Hairdressers shouting at each other over the blow dryers.

Its manners really.

My teenage boys automatically turn the music in the car to whatever they want. I've pointed out to them that it's my car and as I'm the driver they need to check with me first. It shocked me because in theory they are all for feminism and they certainly respect me. It's a minor thing but it makes me realise how insidious it is.

Horopu Isn't that just selfish teenage behaviour for both sexes? I used to do that all the time, didn't even consider my mum or dad would want to listen to anything!

BillBrysonsBeard

I'm not so sure. My sons used to do it in my car, not in DH's.

(Although that could be a function of them knowing he's far more precious about his car than I am about mine).

My daughters all do that too whether in my car or my husband's, I think that's a teenage thing rather than a man thing tbh

To be fair, some of the most inconsiderate and noisy behaviour I have seen on trains has often come from groups of young women (particularly if they are drinking).

But I think the point about men acting in a particularly dominating way in their "workspace" is interesting. Generally I think women don't tend to act in the same way at work. It cuts across a range of careers too - men in professional jobs seem more likely to shout or lose their temper. I have experienced men at work acting in a way that can be quite stressful and intimidating, to the extent that a younger female PA had to take time off work because she couldn't cope with the way in which one particular individual regularly spoke to her.

Online gaming and gaming in general. Google gamer gate.

Women gamers regularly get harassed up to rape threats, it's behind a screen. I have gamed all my life and beaten the boys at their own game literally. Some of them are completely threatened by women gamers.Some women gamers have recorded the harassment and posted on YouTube.

Some women have made all women clans, I belong to some all women groups but refuse to actually exclusively game with only other women. I can see why they do it though, you need a thick skin.

Going in to an open game lobby, the crap you hear is unreal. Last time it happened to me which was a couple of months ago I asked the harasser if they would like men to speak to their mother, sister, aunt like that. How would he feel knowing they were harassed.

Unfortunately there is a small section of women gamers who do use their sexuality to attract followers on twitch or YouTube. It's a major issue.

@BillBrysonsBeard quite possibly. I never did it in my parents' cars, I was a stereotypical 'good girl' so who knows.

I also find them lying in my bed while they wait for something to cook (my room is right next to the kitchen). I kick them and and mutter about personal space. I do have the most comfortable bed in the house so I think it is mainly laziness rather than anything else.

I know that all three of my children have a lot of respect for me generally, for what I have achieved professionally and for how I have looked after them.

Thinking back to school, the entire playground was dominated by a game of football, with the girls skirting the edges playing skipping and elastic games.

That's called poor work attitude not masculinity. The girls at the front desk at my gym are constantly sitting around chatting. They even have the cheek to look annoyed rather than embarrassed when you walk up to the counter for help.

@Horopu tbh what you've described is pretty typical teenage stuff rather then male hating female stuff...

Things like this possibly go beyond dominating space but are a way of exerting their power over women and girls in public as well as being incredibly threatening: www.standard.co.uk/news/london/cabaret-compere-told-she-deserves-to-be-raped-after-standing-up-to-vile-catcalling-at-white-city-a3536886.html

The harassment in the first place being dominating space, making sure women know they're in male space (in public) and exist for their amusement, the violent abuse at her challenging this a reminder that women should shut up and politely take harassment not ever object.

My DM when I was first breastfeeding my DS was very worried about me feeding in public/not using a cover because "what if men are watching?". She was worried about me receiving abuse, but also them feeling uncomfortable.

a year in, she's been with me while I breastfeed with my son in the carrier, walking through the shopping centre, glaring and tutting at anyone (male or female) who looks vaguely affronted.

She means well, but crikey I wish she'd find a middleground between repressed and fighty....

@littlemisssweetness fair enough. I think it interests me cos I'm now a single mum, and I realise if I don't challenge their behaviour then they might not make that important transition from teenage selfishness.

I am very easy going and often willing to let things slide. They certainly don't hate females but growing up in a patriarchal society it's important to me that I challenge their behaviour. Plenty of people don't hate women but go along with the status quo which disadvantages us. Sorry to wander off topic.

Sorry- meant to say- the traditional male "ownership" of the public space is very much ingrained in my mothers psyche. accepting harassment etc as inevitable- even desirable.

I remember pre-baby, Some slime eyeballed me when we were shopping and said something obscene under his breath... DM's response was a wistful "ohhhh men used to look at me
Like that"

I agree Horopu and it sounds like you're doing it excellently. I'm sure your sons will be splendid people who oppose misogyny when they come across it. You challenging sexist behaviour if you see it in them (even if benign) will I've no doubt help in that regard.

Whereas of course QueenNefertitty harassment is about power and control over women, shown by how often it turns aggressive if women don't respond compliantly such as in the link I posted.

@nolove and @horopu -

interesting as single mothers of sons (me too) - how we challenge this behaviour, without seeming like a "lone female voice" to our children.

I.e- not just reinforcing feminist behaviours with our sons, but ensuring they understand this isn't just "their mum" doing this from a "mum" perspective - and it getting lost in the wider "my mums says/does xyz" context, but has broader social implications outside of our family unit

Does that make sense? (Albeit slightly off topic!)