Sarah Champion

[Timefortea99]

Anyone one else enraged/disturbed about her resignation as Shadow Equalities & Women's minister? Gave an article to The Sun (probably not the wisest choice of newspaper) talking about Asian grooming gangs in her constituency and the rest of the UK. There is a problem, we are letting people down if we do not talk about it. It is still going on. Yet now the woman who arguably knows quite a lot on the subject, has been silenced. I actually don't think I could vote for labour ever again. They are morphing into a misogynistic party.

Frouby - you keep making class statements. In the public sphere, it is impossible to talk about groups like you do without people taking it the wrong way. No one has problems with Pakistani men. A very small minority of Pakistani men are involved in grooming and raping young white girls. Their motivation is racist, as you say. These men are steeped in their cultural expectations of what white girls are like and have taken that to an appalling extreme of interpretation.

There SHOULD be a quality debate. We SHOULD be talking about race and culture (in fact, it feels like this is rarely out of the news: I think we've heard plenty about the failing liberals who put the blinkers on for fear of being labelled a racist). We should NEVER be making class generalisations particularly in the current febrile environment you describe.

I think we've heard plenty about the failing liberals who put the blinkers on for fear of being labelled a racist)

No. Because people on this thread and liberal people of my acquaintance still don't really believe that actually happened. And people who know it did will keep pointing out that it did so it isn't allowed to happen again. And if it is swept under the carpet, the far right will take advantage. It needs to be handled very carefully, but many people would still just like to ignore it and dismiss it because it's a difficult subject.

Luckily all is fine now, but if we can't have a discussion about people who wish us actual harm, and want to rape because we don't fit their narrow definition of honour then we really lack any sense of self preservation.

I agree. And the culturally relativistic argument of "different ideas of honour" has actually been used as (mostly unsuccessfully) a defence in criminal sexual assault cases in both this country and other western countries. And that is wrong.

.....but what is equally depressing is the lack of response / interest this thread has received. & yes. I know this topic is never as busy as chat or aibu, but I doubt this thread would have generated much more interest even there. Feminists are remarkable quiet on this issue, & that for me, is more worrying than a male politician shutting down debate.

Very much this.

Yes Stig.

I think for me this boils down to - are young girls not living near British Pakistani communities at less risk than those living near to such communities?

I honestly believe that young girls that fit the description of white trash are at such a high risk of sexual abuse everywhere that the only sensible denominator is that the perpetrators are male.

I didn't know one girl in my acquaintances of young troubled drop outs in my teens who wasn't being sexually abused. Most are of course trapped now in the cycle of dependancy on abusive men.

This isn't a problem of how one community sees young chavvy females, white or not. It's a problem of how the whole of the UK sees them.

Flatpacker where did I mention class in my post? Or even allude to it?

It's not about class. It's about race. It's about what racism is and what it isnt. It isn't racist to say men of Pakistani muslim background raped white, British girls in Rotherham for a number of years and it was ignored by the authorities for fear of appearing racist.

It would be racist to say 'all/most/many Pakistanis of muslim background raped white, British girls in Rotherham' because they didn't. A small minority did. Many of that minority won't ever be prosecuted because their victims are in an impossible position. Some are still with their abusers. Some have children by their abusers. Some will be too scared to come forward after the honour killing in our town of one young victim who dared to speak out to her abusers.

It's not a class thing at all. Some of the girls were from 'troubled' familes. I know personally some that were just normal families whatever that means.

But it's not about class at all.

There are cultural issues involved with some of these men. I don't know how you can deny that. It is a difficult conversation and we have to be extra careful not to stereotype or give ammunition to racists, but do you honestly think there is no difference for women and girls between living here or living in Kandahar or Karachi? These men may or may not have been born abroad, but their parents likely were.

Good post Frouby.

You misunderstand me. I meant to say that 'Pakistani men rape white girls' is a statement that groups Pakistani men into a single class. The statement in a sense may strictly be accurate, but obviously smears ALL Pakistani men. We can't be using these generalisations.

She didn't make that statement though did she? It was qualified, and in context. She was describing something specific which is recognised as a sexual abuse problem among other sexual abuse problems, and the reaction to it.

But it is true. And no amount of word play gets away from that. Pakistani men of muslim origin raped white, British girls in Rotherham and that is a problem.

I do understand what you are saying. We can't say all but no one did. And its not just a problem because the men were doing it. It was a problem because no one dared discuss or take action because it was Pakistani men of a muslim background. They hid behind the racism of others. They were untouchable for many, many years because of their ethnicity. For years they got away with it because they were Pakistani men from a muslim background.

And let me tell you something else. The Pakistani community knew it was going on. They dismissed it because it was white, british girls not nice Pakistani girls from good families.

I remember being in a taxi with a regular taxi driver a few years ago. He lived a few doors up from me. He sent food around at ramamdan. Put my bins out after an airport run one year. Smiled and said hello. His dcs were in my dds class. His wife talked kids at the school gate with me.

He mentioned the abuse cases. Said how horrific it all was. How nice families don't do that. And how horrified he was by it all. I agreed with him. He went on to say how horrific the shame was that had been brought on his community. How sad he was for his community. How the men involved had gone too far. How they should have been more careful. And again how much shame had been brought on his community.

Not our community. Or the community. Or the rotherham community.

And that's the overwhelming feeling I get from the Pakistani community in Rotherham. That it's a terrible thing that shame has been brought on their community. Not that it's a terrible thing that has happened to children.

You misrepresent what Frouby said. It sounds like she knows quite a lot about what happened in Rotherham. Perhaps listen to her?

Cross post

"...The fact that Muslim men have been disproportionately 'caught' / sentenced could be taken as proof of racism. I mean, surely no one actually believes the police aren't racist towards non-white communities?..."

No this isn't proof of racism at all. This is a false flag.

Part of the scandal in Rotherham was that the organised gang who were doing it were NOT being investigated despite social workers gathering and presenting corroborative evidence/intelligence about the goings on. We can't just call it racism now that the pattern is being looked at by the Police, because the pattern is clearly there.

Yeah batteries it's a depressing reality. Was this caused by those Asian men whose cultural assumptions let them see the white girls as slags. Nah they just saw them as easy accessible victims - you think those same men aren't abusive within their own community - utter bollocks they are.

In my experience the opposite is true. That the police are racist. Certainly not in Rotherham. I can give many examples but I won't because I will end up of being accused of being racist.

Sometimes I feel racist. Because I do judge. But when do you say 'you're being a judgemental, racist fucker making assumptions about an entire race of people' and when do you say 'you are going on an instinct based on years of experience on one particular race'.

I grew up in an area that would today be classed as 'multicultural'. In reality it was a ghetto of people from a completely different background with completely different expectations and cultural norms. The 'pakis' of my childhood were ostracized, abused and suffered horrific inequality. They were blamed for everything from nits to poverty. They were criticised for not working and criticised for 'taking our jobs'. They were accused of being responsible for the drug epidemics to taking over local dealers business with cut price weed and smack. They were accused of taking up.council houses yet criticised for buying property. The irony of a local 'can't work, won't work' family complaining in the local post office behind Pakistani women collecting their family allowance wasn't seen.

And the shame on a family whose daughter was 'shagging the pakis' was worse than a daughter coming home pregnant at 15 to the above redundant local drug dealer.

And the same biys who called those girls 'paki slags' are now round Rotherham town centre on a Saturday afternoon protesting about the fact that the police and social services and the council did nothing.

Rotherham should hang its head in shame. The only victims in all this is the children as young as 11 who were passed around 30 and 40 and 50 year old men. Who were taken from childrens homes by taxi to cities and used and abused in hotel rooms by Pakistani Uncles. Who were collected from schools and family homes and bus stops and chip shops and taxi ranks.

The Pakistani muslim community has a lot to answer for. But so does the whole of Rotherham.

And that is my last post on this thread because I always end up looking like I am racist. I am not. I am an annoying lefty liberal. But even I fail to see how these cases are not a racial issue.

you think those same men aren't abusive within their own community - utter bollocks they are.

No one has said that they aren't. That doesn't mean that there weren't cultural issues involved in any way with this specific type of abuse that they perpetrated.

IT IS NOT PAKISTANIS
In Bristol it was Somalis
In Newcastle it was Bangladeshi, Indian, Iraqi, Iranian, Turkish alongside Pakistani
In Oxford, Pakistani and East African
Rochdale - Pakistani and Afghani
Rotherham - Pakistani

Yes most are Muslim.
I think the link is more to very patriarchal societies with strong views on modesty and gender roles than particular races or religions.
If I was of Pakistani heritage I would find the reporting on this deeply upsetting.

Full fact have analysed the stats
fullfact.org/news/are-asians-disproportionately-represented-prosecutions-sex-offences/

Channel 4 have done more recent reporting that suggests while men of Asian origin are more commonly responsible for group offences, white men carry out solo offences and these are the majority of crimes

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/what-do-we-know-about-the-ethnicity-of-sexual-abuse-gangs

So is it OK that the media is overwhelmingly focussed on group offences rather than the large number of sex offences against children as a whole. I don't think so but ymmv

And that's the overwhelming feeling I get from the Pakistani community in Rotherham. That it's a terrible thing that shame has been brought on their community. Not that it's a terrible thing that has happened to children.

Of course the Pakistani people in Rotherham talk about "their community" because it's being discussed and reported as a Pakistani Muslim crime. You can't have it both ways. If you are labelling it as a crime in a particular community you can't then get the hump about people from that community describing it as such

Yes that's a fair point. But as you note there is a cultural commonality. That should not be brushed under the carpet. This is a specific crime which requires a specific approach which in some ways will be different to other CSA.

I think you missed her point there.

Yes I agree eresh and I think I would feel very differently if there were signs that people were to take offending against women and girls more seriously as a whole. For me it just all smacks of fiddling while Rome is burning. We can't tell these guys their attitude to women is wrong while we have a society that promotes a view that fuckability is the most important aspect of femaleness; that cat calling and harassment is OK; that sex work is a valid profession.

Yes it's a fair comment. And should be raised. And the race/culture issues need to be treated sensibly. But I'm just concerned about the consequences of people feeling like they can't mention the culture aspect at all. Because it will be exploited by perps to cover up abuse, and generally it won't stop people believing things. They will just have more of a grievance.

Sensitively I meant to say! But sensibly too

Given the horrific nature of the offending I can't get too worked up about feelings of offence or hurt within the communities the offenders come from. It hardly compares to the suffering inflicted on these children and understanding and dealing with what lead to that is what we should be focussing on. The fact that time is spent dwelling on "feeling offended" just shows how we still fail to prioritise the safety of girls and women. Everybody else comes first.