Sarah Champion

[Timefortea99]

Anyone one else enraged/disturbed about her resignation as Shadow Equalities & Women's minister? Gave an article to The Sun (probably not the wisest choice of newspaper) talking about Asian grooming gangs in her constituency and the rest of the UK. There is a problem, we are letting people down if we do not talk about it. It is still going on. Yet now the woman who arguably knows quite a lot on the subject, has been silenced. I actually don't think I could vote for labour ever again. They are morphing into a misogynistic party.

'rather than saying hmmm what a convenient cover for abandoning those girls. Not even just abandoning but judging and belittling.'

So true. A very convenient cover indeed for deciding that those girls were trash who deserved no better.

I am so very unsurprised to hear that those men subjected their own wives to a life of hell behind closed doors. Absolutely right to say that this is a male violence problem first and foremost

I can't imagine how Sarah Champion thought any good could come of writing in The Sun. Such a filthy rag

Jesus, Corbyn is such a fucking wet blanket.

I understand that it is a men issue - and I also see how covering this without stereotyping is so problematic. But that's what got us into this mess in the first place - there is so much evidence that communities, social services, the police and politicians all knew about these incidents but, for a variety of reasons including fear of being called racist, it wasn't tackled and groups of vulnerable young women were left to suffer.

And I strongly disagree batteriesallgone with this 'The abuse of young girls of any colour by older white men who are 'clean' in all other respects is rarely met with outrage' I think it generally IS met with outrage and condemnation.

I don't know what the 'solution' is - certainly education and the unashamed promotion of British values. While I am always a bit at anyone who writes for the Sun I still regret the fact that yet again men on the left are targeting women who speak out and failing to address the real issue in this instance which is the rape and abuse of girls.

It's very upsetting as a survivor of abuse as a teen by older men to be told my experience is irrelevant and that my claims - that this kind of thing is insanely prevalent amongst white communities too, and a blind eye routinely turned - are false. By people with what actual experience of it?

It could be being perpetrated by your next door neighbour for all you know, and shouting down victims and claiming that such a thing doesn't exist among British values is not behaviour that is likely to open your eyes.

Great posts by batteries and seeing. Seeing said exactly what I was trying to articulate but better, thank you.

enough have a look at the tone of reporting around the Adam Johnson case to see how white offenders are treated.

Or did they ignore it for years because no one gives a crap about 14 year old drop out / loose / lifestyle slags being the sex toys of older men?

Both. Read the official enquiry reports. There was a council culture of being scared to be perceived as racist. people who tried to raise it got shut down. Sorry, it's indisputable that this played a role in the abuse continuing for so long.

lass I don't know what your problem is with me on this thread but what I actually said was The ethnicity of the offenders is .... a way of 'othering' the offenders so society can continue to pretend that sexual abuse of children is a rare thing.

It's not about being offended by the othering at all, I was trying to highlight that I think as a society we massively underestimate the scale of sexual offending against women and girls and one of the ways this happens is by building narratives about offenders being monsters/bogeyman. I think that's why there is so much focus on the background of these men and so little on sexual exploitation as a whole.

I'm trying to be as clear as I can, hopefully you can now stop snarking at me.

It's very upsetting as a survivor of abuse as a teen by older men to be told my experience is irrelevant and that my claims - that this kind of thing is insanely prevalent amongst white communities too, and a blind eye routinely turned - are false. By people with what actual experience of it?

No one has the right to deny your own experience. That's not the point here. You are trying to claim that there isn't a pattern with this specific type of abuse and the reaction to it. All the evidence suggests there is. Rotherham, Rochdale and other places did hush it up because of the racial element. And that is wrong.

I was trying to highlight that I think as a society we massively underestimate the scale of sexual offending against women and girls and one of the ways this happens is by building narratives about offenders being monsters/bogeyman.

Yes I agree, but it's possible to make that point without dismissing the cultural issues inherent in these specific situations.

Just to clarify batteries - I did not say that your experience was' irrelevant' or that your claims are false - I just disagreed with your perspective.
I did not 'shout down victims' - I don't know anyone's personal history one here and I certainly didn't state that that 'such a thing doesn't exist among British values'. Sexual abuse is prevalent in all ethnic groups, cultures, class, sexes etc and I was thinking about the range of recent court cases and enquiries into abuse in this country when I wrote..

I'm not quite sure how you interpreted what I said in this way? My comments weren't meant as a dismissal of anyone's experiences, they were a contribution to a really difficult and sensitive discussion and obviously I didn't express myself as clearly as I thought I had. My apologies.

While I am always a bit  at anyone who writes for the Sun I still regret the fact that yet again men on the left are targeting women who speak out and failing to address the real issue in this instance which is the rape and abuse of girls.

This.

One poster has objected to these men being "othered" yet that is exactly what these men are doing to their victims- white trash who don't matter. Male entitlement with extra added racism.

YY.

And the people who try to raise abuse by white men?...

Oh yeah, they don't. Which doesn't equal that it's not happening.

One was consciously ignored for fear of racism. One is unconsciously ignored because it's embedded in our culture and we don't see it as wrong in the same way. Both happen.

I mean evidence of grooming used to be on Jeremy Kyle ALL THE TIME. Hiding in plain sight. And there was never any suggestion anyone had a problem with it.

Make the bloke non-white on the other hand...

Yes I agree, but it's possible to make that point without dismissing the cultural issues inherent in these specific situations.
I'm not dismissing them, just not putting them front and centre of the debate.
Anyway clearly I'm in a minority in thinking exploitation of vulnerable girls is a male entitlement thing rather than a brown person thing so I will step away.

It probably still is btw, I just don't watch Jezza anymore!

Anyway clearly I'm in a minority in thinking exploitation of vulnerable girls is a male entitlement thing rather than a brown person thing so I will step away. It is neither. It is a criminal thing.

I live in Rotherham and knew some of the victims.

It is absolutely a cultural issue. There was and is a problem with muslim Pakistani men raping white women. To acknowledge this doesn't mean that there aren't problems with other groups of men abusing girls and boys. Just that this is one problem.

It's a racial problem for 2 reasons. One is because the men saw the girls as inferior and there for the taking. Good muslim Pakistani girls are married young and for bearing children and running the home. White girls are for fun.

The second reason is because it was absolutely brushed under the carpet because of the race of the abusers. Partly because no one wanted to be accused of being racist. And partly because no one wanted to create difficulties and racial tension in an area that was already pretty tense and always has been.

Since it has been public knowledge Rotherham has had regular marches from far right groups. At one point it was every other week. It has nearly destroyed our already struggling town centre. There is suspicion and hate every where you turn. And racial tension is never far away. Comments acknowledging the problem will no doubt trigger more marches and more racial tension. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed in a factual matter.

The facts are that Rotherham had a problem with muslim Pakistani men raping white girls. It doesn't mean that Rotherham doesn't have a problem with white men or Caribbean men or Catholic priests or any other group of men raping white girls. But the cases being discussed were the Pakistani muslim gangs organising, selling and grooming young girls into a huge paedophile ring.

I am very disappointed by JCs stance on this. The most vulnerable people in the country are young girls. Not grown men.

Recently I've been working and talking with some women who have survived this. You can bet your last penny on the fact that the wives and children of these men are also being treated with horrific abuse - one of the women told me that, while she was being raped, one of her rapists liked to phone his wife and have them 'talk' to each other. They routinely talked of what they did to their wives and children, and were completely nonplussed about ever being called to account for what they were doing to any of these women or children.

Frouby is absolutely spot on - yes, this is an issue of men's power and privilege, but you don't ignore one group of perpetrators because there are others too. SC is not right about everything, but she needs to own this - she needs to stand by what she said and not back down when faced with yet more sexism, this time from her own party.

%One was consciously ignored for fear of racism. One is unconsciously ignored because it's embedded in our culture and we don't see it as wrong in the same way. Both happen.^

I'm not for one second denying that. I've been a victim of male violence only from white men. But this is a specific form of it and these girls and the few people who tried to help them should not have been silenced for PC reasons or fear of it.

You'll have to imagine the italics in the quote!

am very disappointed by JCs stance on this. The most vulnerable people in the country are young girls. Not grown men.

Well said.

Anyway clearly I'm in a minority in thinking exploitation of vulnerable girls is a male entitlement thing rather than a brown person thing so I will step away.

Please don't try to imply that people on this thread are racist or don't care about vulnerable girls. Untrue and uncalled for.

Anyway clearly I'm in a minority in thinking exploitation of vulnerable girls is a male entitlement thing rather than a brown person thing so I will step away

Where has anyone said that? No one has said it is not male entitlement- it is male entitlement, in this case specifically targeted at girls of a different ethnicity.

I remember an article in The Times in the early 2000s that raised this very issue and cautioned against making about race. The problem is it IS an issue and has to be addressed, but we all seem so incapable of walking and chewing gum at the same time. When the Catholic abuse scandals blew up its all anyone could talk about as if it was only Catholic Priests did this sort of thing. Now Rotherham has blown up it seems to eclipse all other dimensions and seems to present only Muslims and 70s entertainers.

Outside of abuse suffered through family members, and people close to families the biggest cohort of perpetrators come from teachers and education. We manage to tackle that subject without demonising all teachers and to have that conversation in a civilised manner.

There are people outside and within Muslim communities that are speaking out and wanting to stamp out this kind of abuse, and often these people say the same sorts of things. There are also a legion of people ready to cry racism before the first syllable is formed from anyone willing to examine this.

Yes we are all capable of being racist and it's always worth having that conversation, but a bit of perspective and proportion needs to be applied. Forgive me if I'm not in full on Islamophile mode, a close relative of mine was in Barcelona yesterday whilst I was looking after their children. Luckily all is fine now, but if we can't have a discussion about people who wish us actual harm, and want to rape because we don't fit their narrow definition of honour then we really lack any sense of self preservation.

The article was piss poor - I can't really believe anyone politically literate and not envisioning a future UKIP / Katie Hopkins career could write it/authorise it.

The reality is that gangs of men do this, sure there are different cultural and social reasons that dictate the different demographics of these gangs but the communality is masculinity.

Girls from lower social economic groups, girls in care, girls made vulnerable through earlier abuse, from grooming and low self esteem have been used by men like these for years.

Go back 15 years and you couldn't get SS or the police to be interested in girls in Children's homes being pimped out by older girls/boys and the men in cars outside. At the time the men doing this were white where I worked and later still white but a different ethnic group. Society has never given much of a shit about poor young girls.