No more girls and boys; can our children go gender free? BBC 2 tonight

[Ekphrasis]

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09202lp

I heard PM in radio 4 discussing this research, it seems to hugely benefit girls in terms of their views on their own achievements and the achievements of women in general.

Will listen with interest.

What surprised me (as we have had this language banned in my place of work, with children) is that the teacher, pre experiment, called girls sweetie and petal, and boys buddy etc.

Girls may well feel the same about boys' endearments, like buddy, mate. But I don't think they would be as horrified. Just puzzled.

I have been, many times, even by very "englightened" genderists included in "you guys", and similar. I tolerated this, mistakenly thinking this modern, cool, unisex word usage.

Now I wish I had thrown a tantrum, considering the tantrums they throw if someone "misgenders" them.

I wouldn't mind "mate" or "buddy", as those aren't collective terms with which the women in a group are erased, they're individual terms.

I think terms of endearment should be saved for those you love; I'll call dh babe and darling and honey but no one else would! I'll call him mate but often when I'm cross So I suppose in a professional capacity at work just a name is all that's needed. (It's all we are allowed anyway where I work).

Yes I grew up with and use sausage. I have joked with pupils that they're a silly sausage.

I think there's a regional link to terms of endearment. A Manc male air steward consistently called me love but not dh. It did annoy me.

To me this is similar to the whole transgender pronoun argument and the attempt to artificially control peoples language and force people to speak in a way that doesn't offend you?

And to me there is a clear difference between marketing, advertising and how people choose to spend their money in a free economy and ideologically trying to impose your genderless view.

Thephoneywar do you think there are any issues with gender stereotypes as they currently stand?

It's not offence, it's suppression.

It's not a free economy though is it? There are gendered constraints.

It's not about controlling what you choose it's allowing choice as described in this story:

www.kidspot.com.au/parenting/real-life/reader-stories/no-give-him-something-for-boys-face-painter-shares-sad-story/news-story/972a4eafe381c257237e8d7325810e10

Why couldn't the boy have a blue butterfly?

Thephoneywar

I too agree that artificially controlling language is wrong. For instance, being forced by government to use the correct pronouns, which are demonstrably incorrect, on pain of penalty. But this isn't about the trans-ideology. It's the opposite.

Of course, people should be free to spend their money on what they like. It's not about their decision on what to buy, it's about what is available to buy, and how it's marketed, which then informs their choice. That, to me, is forcing people into a decision that they wouldn't otherwise make.

So all the boys who might like a football, but only if it's blue. That's not their decision, that's a decision being forced on them by telling them blue is for boys. Colours aren't gendered. We make them so.

A girl might buy a pink skipping rope, because pink is for girls. When a 100 years ago, pink was for boys (it was considered a masculine colour because it is a variation on red, red being for boys!).

So it's not what they buy, what ends up in their toybox, it's the reasons why they buy them.

It's not to force neutrality on kids for the sake of it. It's because designating certain things for males and certain things for females keeps people in their boxes.

From the half of the programme I have seen, many of the girls have low self-esteem. Their box is to be pretty, not be ambitious, not be strong, denigrate their own physicality. It actually damages them.

The boy's box is to be strong, be a captain, be a leader. And if they fail, they can't cope. Because not being those things means there is something wrong with them. It damages them too.

Are you beginning to see that there may be benefits to this?

(Datun put it much better than me!)

I've just discovered the letterbox library (publisher?). Seems good.

Look a gender equal farming book!

www.letterboxlibrary.com/acatalog/A-Farmer-s-Life-2-3.html

Why couldn't the boy have a blue butterfly?
What a sad little story. The parents sounded awful.

If you want a female farmer, then you want Usbourne Farmyard Tales. Mrs Boot the farmer and her children Poppy and Sam are the main characters. Mr Boot is around, but rarely gets mentioned.

usborne.com/browse-books/catalogue/product/1/7291/the-complete-book-of-farmyard-tales/

There is also evidence that men and women's brains are wired differently at birth that naturally separates their future ability to learn certain subjects by gender. It doesn't mean you can't override how you were born but I went to one of the top art colleges in the uk and I can tell you now there's definitely (at least in every artistic experience I've had) a predisposed type of man that goes into the arts seriously.

Sorry, but that is utter rubbish. A "certain type" of man goes into the arts because it's socially acceptable for effeminate men to do "girl things". Manly men do manly subjects like maths. It is socialisation.

I'm a mathematician. Las time i looked i still haven't grown a penis. I find maths easy. I didn't have to work harder to keep up with the men, i am just naturally good at it. Because of how i am, and the fortunate fact i never gave a shit about being the only girl in my higher maths class. I actually had friends at gcse who dropped maths because they didn't want to sit with a bunch of boys.

That "certain type" of man is ok in a class with a bunch of girls. I have no doubt many men drop art because they don't want to be the only straight boy in class.

If you want a female farmer, then you want Usbourne Farmyard Tales

Oh God - happy days of Apple Tree Farm stories

I wonder if there is a correlation with people on Twitter who complained and dismissed the documentary and who also took up issue with....wait for it...a female lead in Star Wars or A female Dr Who...?

Having read some of the messages today I think I may have been overly critical yesterday, I can see how the programme had a lot of positive messgaes to come from it.
I just hope that it's not an alternative way of pushing for things like gender neutral toilets and a slow enforcement of gender neutral language by putting a positive spin on things. I'll look forward to the second part to make my mind up.

I remember Farmyard Tales. I am also a female farmer but I think that's more to do with coming from a long line of farmers. Farming is a surprisingly non sexist occupation in the sense that if you are good at it It doesn't matter if you're male or female. However you do have to have your wits about you. You can't be a soft touch.

I haven't seen the prog. but I think that the way we were brought up in the past had a lot of positives e.g. this pink nonsense drives me witless.

You can't be a soft touch

Especially when at agricultural shows and you want to buy a quad bike

I always find the evolution of computers and sex interesting.

In the beginning, computing was very much a womans occupation. Akin to typing and secretarial work. Many of the first computer scientists were women. Then it's scope was realised and slowly it became a mans job. This was reinforced with the first home computers- they were very much childrens toys, and were marketed toward boys, as an alternative to the typewriters that girls had.

Ff a few years and entrants on the new fangled computer science degrees were pretty mixed. Until the girls realised that a childhood spent on trypewriters while the boys were playing and learning about computers meant they were very far behind, and started dropping out in droves.

Football too. In the uk it's highly desirable for boys, girls who play it are "tomboys". In the us, however, there are millions of dads horrified that their son wants to play soccer "like a girl", and think it will turn sons gay.

Especially when at agricultural shows and you want to buy a quad bike
You remembered orlantina I never did buy a new quad bike

Sorry, but that is utter rubbish. A "certain type" of man goes into the arts because it's socially acceptable for effeminate men to do "girl things

Actually I think you are both talking rubbish here.

Initially I thought this programme was going to be a ridiculous politically correct farce but it was anything but. I was appalled at the way the girls thought of themselves.
I have never let a woman stop me doing anything from motorbiking to working in a male dominated region of the NHS.
If I had a daughter I'd definitely discourage "princess" thinking. And that teacher calling all of the girls love and darling was appalling.

I don't know any effeminate artists. Most of my peers all married each other and had kids. (Easier to be with an artist!) The art world is quite normal.

Looks like transactivists might be highly pissed off with this programme.

gendertrender.wordpress.com/

Six comments in.

Was I the only one who instinctively thought of male dancers when the children were asked to draw a ballet dancer? I immediately thought of Carlos Acosta and a recent interview I read with Xander Parish.

I think it shows how powerful strong role models (and the media in promoting them) can be in subverting stereotypes. Billy Elliot is also probably one of the most famous films about ballet dancing, at least in recent years.

Now we need more female magicians, comedians and astronauts to become more visible and better promoted!