Upskirting - not a crime

[WorkingBling]

Argh. Saw this article today. And of course, a few deluded souls commenting underneath. The law really needs to catch up with the reality of living in the 21st century.

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/times2/upskirting-creepy-invasive-but-as-one-woman-found-not-a-crime-h3vgx6b5f

I was so shocked to find out it isnt a crime, and neither is sharing the photos.

It both is and is not a form a voyeurism

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upskirt

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyeurism

Ugh. Seriously.

I've been constantly getting the feeling lately that a women's feelings, attitude, etc, to their bodies is so far removed from men's attitude to their bodies.

I may have trouble explaining it. Take sex for instance. A man having sex is in a position of penetration and assertiveness. A woman is more in a position of receiving and vulnerability. The acts are almost the opposite of each other.

There's something of an inherent invasion to it. Don't get me wrong, often that is part and parcel of the pleasure of the act. But nonetheless, there is a vulnerability that remains firmly in the province of the female.

And it extends to things like going to the loo. Men are quite happy peeing in front of other men. As long as it doesn't overstep the mark.

Many men indulge in a spot of light-hearted willy waving when they come out of the shower, women will often scuttle past with a towel around them.

Obviously, all those examples are generalisations, but I'm struggling to articulate what I mean.

This upskirting issue has the same flavour to it, for me.

I think most people can easily understand that it's wrong and distressing for the individual. But I think it takes a woman to really grasp the violation involved.

It's not only about viewing women as objects, it's about the failure to fully comprehend how it makes a woman feel, in its entirety.

Otherwise, why is it completely legal?

This is absolutely appalling. It is a crime in Scotland and also in New Zealand. There is a petition at the end of this Evening Standard Article asking for the law to change which I have signed.

www.standard.co.uk/news/london/woman-urges-mps-to-take-action-on-upskirting-after-man-takes-photo-up-her-skirt-with-no-consequences-a3608061.html

It is also shocking to learn that the police reassured by her telling her they had made him delete the image and in doing so go rid of the evidence.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-40861875

So does this mean it's not a crime if they do it to children either?

Maybe it's a crime in Scotland because there, it can happen to men too.

(Sorry, but some things are irresistible.)

It's abhorrent and is part of a general trend of taking photographs of women without consent to share online - this was written about in the Telegraph some time ago: www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/10987816/Creep-shot-Twitter-trend-how-creeps-just-got-creepier.html

As with that, the photographs being discussed in this thread are intended to objectify, embarrass and most of all degrade women and girls. It's an exertion of power - the power of the men who take them to do this and to share in the humiliation of the womem/girls they take them of with others.

There seems to be a range of ways in which photographs posted online are used to attack and degrade girls and women. This was recently reported on in The Sunday Times but has been going on for some time: www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/baiting-the-sexual-cyber-bullying-that-targets-teenage-girls-968pbbcq8

This involves everyday photographs of girls being taken from Facebook pages and uploaded onto well known forums and social media sites, where many pile in to make sexually violent comments about the subjects and so forth. It's abhorrent and there's a high chance any girl has been subject to it from someone as it's constantly happening on certain forums where people can post completely anonymously, as well as on social media accounts dedicated to sharing them. Sorry, this isn't the specific topic of the thread but I think it's all linked - although I appreciate this isn't necessarily relevant to "upskirt" photographs being legal, which is horrific and shows a complete disregard for women and girls.

Not just weirdos and Twitter, the Daily Mail has awful things all the time.

Who is teaching these boys/men that it's fine to violate womens' boundaries in this vile way - does it all come back to porn?

I think pornography is a significant factor but am not sure if it's that alone which has lead to this. It seems to be boys and men of all ages doing this (not that this means pornography isn't a factor) - see this recent case of a man targeting girls on their way to and from school: www.chiswickw4.com/default.asp?section=info&page=concrime921.htm

At least this was prosecuted due to the ages of the victims and the content he possessed on his devices.

The media themselves sit outside sleb women's cars to get the up skirt shot in the hope she won't be wearing knickers. It's not just the weirdo down the street. It's nirmal

I think most people can easily understand that it's wrong and distressing for the individual. But I think it takes a woman to really grasp the violation involved.

Men might enjoy waving their own willies at each other, but I bet if a random man snapped a covert picture of their genitals and then shared it about, they'd understand the violation well enough... it just never really seems to happen to them does it? So they don't have to care.

just to be clear, the random man is snapping another man's genitals and sharing, it is this second man that understands the violation. The random man is not snapping his own and then sharing - they fucking love doing that!

The DM side-bar photos and the various Red Circle of Shame features in many magazines are part of the same school of "we will take photos of people without their consent and publish them with commentary on how we view these women's bodies"

I don't see how anyone can possibly believe that it's OK to take a photo up someone's skirt, though. You'd have to be a creepy fucker to think it's fine

Icantreachthepretzels

Yes, I completely forgot about the epidemic of dick pics flying around the Internet.

There was a very disgruntled woman on Facebook who was sent an unsolicited dick pic. She spent the next several hours trawling the Internet for penis pics and returning the favour to her harasser/would be suitor. With various comments, mirroring what he had said and his attitude.

He did get a little upset, eventually. I think there were about 60 pictures. Told her to stop, and not to tell anyone.

Then it went viral.

And although I think men would be highly pissed off if someone attempted to photograph their genitals, I still think their reaction would not be the same as that of a woman.

I'd still like to know, though, if it's not illegal to photograph a woman upskirt, is it illegal to photograph a child?

Datun Tue 15-Aug-17 14:13:22
So does this mean it's not a crime if they do it to children either?

Datun hits the nail on the head again.

DJBaggySmalls

In the mists of my memory, I seem to recall a teacher on here saying that the stairs at her school were open plan and boys would stand underneath, watching girls, trying to cop a glimpse.

As far as I remember, there was a discussion about the legality of it, and it was concluded that it wasn't illegal.

I'm not sure anyone made the connection between that and upskirt photos, though. Which is just a more revolting, invasive version.

There were also some commentators who said if the girl doesn't know about it, what difference does it make?

There were also some commentators who said if the girl doesn't know about it, what difference does it make?

Horrendous comment, excusing the objectification and degradation of girls and women and suggesting it's perfectly fine for boys and men to do this. Presumably people who feel that way also have no issue with "creepshots" as I posted of on this thread or "upskirt" photography which the women and girls aren't aware of, never mind the attitudes towards all women and girls this displays. There are also definitely instances of photographs being taken without the consent of girls within schools - some shared online are of girls in school (as well as those taken by men of girls in school uniform outside schools).

Abhorrent, invasive and degrading - as it's intended to be.

The difference is, Marie that you (and your DD and her friends ) have consented to let men look up your skirt and photograph you. I'm pretty relaxed about most sexual activity provided that it is by mutual consent. Women who are photographed covertly have had their ability to agree to participate taken away from them.

classy.

How on earth can you hold the power when someone takes a photo that your not aware of and shares it without your consent? Where is any power - let alone ALL the power?

These men that you let take pictures or have a look, is this something you discuss beforehand or do you catch them in the act and think its just a laugh because you have ALL the power? Discussing it first - whatever floats your boat; catching them in the act - these men are creeps, they don't respect you and you're not the one with the power, sadly not even the power to get them arrested.

It's interesting that schools often have open staircases that teachers know boys lurk under to get an eyeful, and that at the same time school uniform policy is often quite insistent that girls wear skirts. The absolute refusal to protect teenage girls or take their feelings into account by people who have a duty of care to them is, I wish I could say 'shocking', but I think I'll go with the more realistic 'depressing'.
(I'm not suggesting that the stairs and skirts are a perverts conspiracy, just that that's 2 ways that schools are designed that make girls vulnerable - and clearly in some cases they work together to give teenage boys unfettered voyeur access)

I've talked to, including my daughter and her friends actually get a turn on when we let men have a look.

Whilst I think it's a little odd to discuss one's personal sexual proclivities with one's daughter, the key part of this is that you let them.. You are consenting.

We're not talking about a Sharon Stone Basic Instinct scenario here. Were talking about, specifically in the opening post, a young girl who was at a festival, where a man pretended to speak to her whilst he was photographing her under her skirt. He then walked away, sniggering over the photos and showing his mates. The girl was powerless to stop him. He also aggressively pursued her until she managed to find a security guard.

She was unconsenting, powerless and deliberately demeaned.

I hope you can see the difference?

marieolder, the power to do what exactly?

Male fantasy I bet ....