Upskirting - not a crime

[WorkingBling]

Argh. Saw this article today. And of course, a few deluded souls commenting underneath. The law really needs to catch up with the reality of living in the 21st century.

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/times2/upskirting-creepy-invasive-but-as-one-woman-found-not-a-crime-h3vgx6b5f

Male fantasy I bet ....

Pics of DD12 were taken (creep shots of her clothed bum not upskirt) when we were in Leeds recently. I was wearing my cloak of invisibility and managed to grab the phone and educate the group of young men (approx 15-18?) I also called them peados because until then they seemed to find it funny. I went thru his phone sort of daring him to grab it back, deleting maybe 30 photos of young women taken that day, all . I told security and was told what the boys did was not illegal but I shouldn't have taken the phone and deleted as that was. Very frustrating.

Today 06:42 ginandbearit

Male fantasy I bet ....

Of course . You're absolutely right.

Which is perhaps pertinent. Given women describe many experiences on MN, which some man might be copping off to, as a lurker.

All part and parcel of the same shit, really.

Upskirting is another level, not sure how anyone can think a situation like that in the OP shouldn't be illegal.
But as for the wider issue of vouyeurism of women - getting a glimpse of something that's hidden and private, it's very normalised in society.
People have already mentioned the tabloid's obsession with nipple slips, upskirts as some celeb is getting out of a car and the like.
But also, it's so entrenched in our popular culture most people hardly even recognise it. How many teen "coming of age" films contain a scene where the boys are trying to peek into the girl's shower?
The earliest one I remember is Gregory's Girl where the boys watch a woman undress through a window.
I've seen variations on this scene probably hundreds of times.
All portrayed as good, wholesome teenage fun, not as creepy, weird or illegal.

That's horrendous Macncheese but not surprising sadly. These images are constantly being taken of women and girls, with whole social media accounts and sections of well known forums devoted to them, including some to "creepshots" of schoolgirls specifically (not that it's acceptable when done to women). As I said, some are taken within schools and men and boys of all ages take them. It's so commonplace and intended to degrade, humiliate and objectify, as well as displaying contempt for women and girls. It's great you challenged them but abhorrent they found it all amusing and that it happens at all.

I told security and was told what the boys did was not illegal but I shouldn't have taken the phone and deleted as that was. Very frustrating.

See, that's the sort of thing that makes me despair and think -God the world really doesn't give a fuck about women does it?

Deleting a picture of your underage daughter from some little pervs phone without his permission is illegal, but taking photo's of underage girls without their permission and keeping the photos - nah that's just fine.

And what is he going to do with the photo - share it on the internet for all the world to see for all eternity? Masturbate to it? doesn't matter - he's done nothing wrong, bully for him.

Icant - sharing a picture of an underage girl might well constitute an offence under the distribution of porn

Provided you can prove she's underage - if it's just an anonymous picture of her clothed bum though, ...

Unfortunately it goes on constantly and it's extremely rare anyone would be prosecuted for it. The case I linked to above with the man who was caught having taken photographs of numerous schoolgirls on buses on their way to and from school was I think only prosecuted due to taking over a hundred videos and thousands of photographs including many "upskirt" of girls in school uniforms (and even then I don't think he was given a custodial sentence). "Creepshots" of girls and women are being taken and widely shared online constantly.

NoLoveofMine

I don't know why, but I can't seem to find your link. Do you know why he was eventually prosecuted? Was it just a question of volume?

Also, after a quick google skim, I believe it is illegal to take upskirt photos of a child. It's called taking indecent photographs.

Although why it's not indecent when it's of a woman, I don't know. Or perhaps I do.

This is the link Datun: www.chiswickw4.com/default.asp?section=info&page=concrime921.htm

He was reported as some people noticed him filming/taking photographs of girls (including some of the girls themselves - a number of reports were made) and I think he was prosecuted due to the volume and that he had a previous conviction for taking "upskirt" images of girls.

It's abhorrent how regularly this happens to girls and women, worse still that it's not an offence when the victims are women (and that penalties are so light when it happens to girls).

Thanks Nolove

"When arrested Phillips admitted to taking the pictures but when asked if they were for sexual purposes he said he 'supposed so' adding 'I am 80 so there is nothing much sexual going on if you know what I mean'."

Oh, that's alright then. As long as it's all about you and whether you can get it up.

Bellend.

Oh, of course. It's just so degrading, that this goes on so often and there are so many sharing and viewing the images enrages me (not that it's any less awful when they're just taken for the perpetrator themselves to view). I'm sure the power the men and boys who take these images feel over women and girls is part of the motivation as well.

Men, boys, males - they are really strange aren't they? And yet the amount of angst we feel over these strange creatures takes up a lot of time. Really odd. Time to not give a shit about them. Can't ever imagine a situation where a woman would take surreptitious crotch shots.

maybe it's time we started? Do you think they'd get in then? if they never knew when they were being photographed and entire websites were set up to sharing the pics and adding belittling comments.

I know we can't really sink to their level, but I already don't give a shit about the vast majority of them as individuals, that isn't working - I can't not give a shit about the stuff they do though.

It's far more about the boundary violation. Transparently.

Who gives a shit about a girl's knickers, when hard-core porn is simply another button on the same phone.

This is being talked about on gmb.

And ex senior police woman is talking about. Essentially she is saying terrorism ia more important. And that girls need to look after themseleves.

Kate garroway has talked about it just being a prank and men dont deserve to be on the sex offenders register for a prank.

Gina Martin has handled herself well.

A piece from the BBC with others speaking of their experiences of it: www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-40955829

It's incredibly common (and general "creepshots" of girls and women yet more frequent) and many of course remain unaware it's happened to them, such as the victims in this case which was only uncovered by chance after the perpetrator was arrested regarding another matter: www.northsomersettimes.co.uk/news/court/nailsea-man-admits-secret-filming-up-girls-skirts-in-shops-1-5024422

Daniel Esposito, of Dorchester Close, pleaded guilty at North Somerset Courthouse to voyeurism and four acts of outraging public decency

I'm not English qualified nor a Scots criminal law practitioner but I do think some of the " no law broken" situations are simply wrong in law.

I'm not surprised it is a crime in Scotland. Scotland has a Common Law crime of "breach of the peace". This does not mean the obvious loud parties and drunken fighting but has historically covered all sorts of behaviour which wasn't a specific named crime but ought to be. I wasn't sure if English law had an equivalent but "outraging public decency" seems close.

In Scots Law an act can be a breach of the peace even if in private. The case we were given as an example was creepy, sexualised talk by a teacher to a boy in private where nothing physical happened.

Kate garroway has talked about it just being a prank and men dont deserve to be on the sex offenders register for a prank.

Kate is an idiot who can FOTTFSOF.

I rather suspect that there are English laws that could be used to prosecute for this purpose if someone looked hard enough and creatively enough - we have the similar offence of outraging public decency on the statute books, for example

Yes I think you're probably right Olenna.

If they share it malicious communications?

Not on the same scale obvs but on Loose Women on Thursday some reality show bloke was on there with his girlfriend and he made a passing jokey remark on how he doesnt clean the bath cos hes a bloke. And everyone giggled.

This is the low level end of sexism .....how women are expected to do all the drudge work and clean up after men.

And the higher end of sexism is what this thread is about ...women and girls being there for the decoration and titillation of men........to the point that its the fault of women if someone takes an upskirt shot and women and young girls should look after themselves

ITV seems to be another channel that has a problem with women.

There are reports in media of male teenage pupils who have taken upskirt photos/videos of female teachers - but technically no crime has been committed and it seems that the interests of the (underage) pupil must come first so in-house punishment is also avoided (to protect the perpetrator's anonymity at all costs) What message does this send to the victims and to the female pupils in the same classroom? I agree the law needs to catch up. It is so easy to take such photos without being detected.