UK gym to admit self ID'ing men into womens changing rooms

[Whatnextxx]

Here is the thing, went to renew my membership at the gym today but before I signed up asked about the policy of allowing self ID'ing men (i.e. men who decide to become "women" without surgery etc) access to womens changing rooms. The membership assistant didn't know and went to find out, she was gone quite a long time and came back ashen faced to tell me that if a man "presents" as a woman he would be allowed to use the womens changing room. I pointed to a little girl of about 5 or 6 and asked how she would explain a naked male in the changing room to her and did the same with an older women who looked to be around 70. She said she is shocked at the policy and wondered where the protection is for women and girls, she didn't have a clue about Justine Greenings proposals.

The thing is that the womens changing room has only 4 cubicles and they are at the far ends of the main open space so even if I or any woman was to use the cubicles we might emerge into an open space where naked men might be.

The assistant said she had spoken with the manager and asked what would happen if a sex offender pretended to be a woman. She told me that she didn't agree with the policy but that there was nothing she could do as the policy came from central office. What an awful position to put employees in.

She understood exactly why I didn't renew my membership.

I contacted the owner of the gym and to try to highlight the issue did it on Twitter. I was subjected to a barrage of horrible comments, one even accused me of being a jihadist!

So fed up with this, there seems to be nowhere for women to go without worrying that some male bodied person is going to come into spaces where women are changing.

Am I being unduly sensitive or am I realistically concerned about having my privacy and dignity taken away by men who think or want to behave "like a woman"?

Looking back, I now think she had simply been quietly getting on with sorting herself out in a way that was comfortable for her, comfortable for us and caused no issues to anyone. But then where would the TRAs get material from if everyone was as reasonable and grown-up about it as she was...

That nicely illustrates it is not really about transsexuals, is it?

It is not about male people who really feel they are women (and behave like women). They might want some more private changing rooms, problem solved.

This whole transmovement we have at the moment is about men who are perfectly happy with their penis and their masculine socialisation and who just don't want to accept that women have male-free spaces.
It is a backlash against feminism, plain and simple.

Nothing to do with the 0,1 percent or so of people who actually are unhappy with their biological sex as adults.

Josuk YES sex offenders wandering in to offend in plain sight. Do you know nothing about sex offenders? Lucky you! I know rather a lot about them unfortunately, quite a lot of it from personal experience and I can tell you this is not hypothetical. Get a grip of yourself and try staring reality in the face every once in a while.

wrappedupinmyselflikeaspool

Quite apart from the voyeuristic aspect, any woman who has had the experience of one child complaining that the other child is 'looking at them funny', knows exactly what you mean.

Woman's radar about a 'look' is so finely tuned, it's not funny.

Smirking, ogling. There are a million ways a man can deliberately make a woman feel uncomfortable whilst doing absolutely nothing that she can legitimately object to.

I doubt there's a woman on the planet who doesn't know this. Or a man who congratulates himself that he's got away with it.

Datun exactly. And this is how so many sex offenders love to operate, where people feel they can't say anything. It's the lack of consent that gives them the kick.

The part of this that infuriates me wrappedupinmyselflikeaspool is that many men, regular, decent men, don't get it. Because they have never had to.

If I suggested they go into an enclosure with say 100 gorillas, a certain percentage of whom might attack them, but they can't tell which ones, then they might.

Am I missing something or has the OP named the Gym yet?

Our gym has male and female and then two self contained family changing rooms. I don't know if they have a policy for men as women without surgery but it would make sense for them to be directed to the family changing rooms as no risk of upsetting anyone

I wonder how this will effect women who for religious reasons could not change in a room with men ?

Presumably these women would just stop going too.

powernapps I don't think that is what transactivists want. They specifically want to use women's changing rooms, not family or single cubicles.
Gyms and other businesses will have to adapt by installing single secure cubicles in the women's changing rooms, otherwise they will lose a significant number of female customers. Expensive, yes but that is probably the only option.
I use a swimming pool with a unisex changing room and this just isn't a problem, because everyone - men, women and children get changed in self contained cubicles.

@Datun
Woman's radar about a 'look' is so finely tuned, it's not funny.

Smirking, ogling. There are a million ways a man can deliberately make a woman feel uncomfortable whilst doing absolutely nothing that she can legitimately object to.

I was on a busy train into London in broad daylight. I spent a good 15mins being unflinchingly stared at.

What could I possibly have said or done?!
"Don't stare at me" -> "Er, I'm not you mad woman".

Case closed, I look like a weirdo "feminazi" full of myself nutcase, guy gets off scott free, despite both of us knowing the reality.

Not forgetting the space Invaders who are always just to close.

I used to work with a manager who would come over to your desk and stand just to close, then get your attention so as you turned your head you were at eye level with his groin. It was obvious how much he enjoyed doing this IYKWIM. I heard him bragging to some other managers on a night out about how funny he thought it was. Apparently it was fine because he didn't say anything dodgy or touch anyone.

After DD's swimming class there is a women's swim session. This is predominantly used by Muslim women, many in burkinis. Huge gaggle of Somali women paying their entrance fee as we left. I assume once this law comes in it will be very difficult for these women to use the leisure centre as there will be no way to stop any man from swimming during this session. Quite aside from anything else that makes me very angry indeed, it's like the fucking oppression Olympics top trumps. Somali women are hardly over-involved in public life, many will be refugees, poorly educated, but hey, let's make life just that bit more bloody difficult for them, to please a bunch of narc males.

I have just come back from Iceland where there is a culture of fully naked showers before getting in lagoons etc, the sign said (to us shyer foreigners) 'There's no shame, we're all the same' - I wonder how they are dealing with this current bit of cultural double-think.

If this idea of gender feelings over-riding biological sex does hang around for long then there will be no point in sex separated spaces at all, we will have to move to individual spaces for all.

I'm also just back from a holiday in Iceland, and I thought about this when I was there. Everyone must shower naked before using the pool - they are extremely strict about this - no exceptions. I did notice that there were a few shower cubicles and changing cubicles in the pool we visited each day. But even supposing an individual choose to keep themselves covered in the communal areas, they would still be able to see everyone else naked, and it would change the whole atmosphere and freedom of the place.

Organised exercise isn't really my thing, and I'm not a member of a gym, but I found that I found it really liberating to be able to wander about showers and changing rooms with other women and girls, of all ages and shapes, and all naked.

Were the spas sex segregated in Iceland? I'd happily shower naked around women but definitely couldn't do the same around men.

The changing and showering areas are sex segregated, yes. You wear a swimming costume after you have showered so using the pools/lagoons is the same as here.

^OP - so is this all a hypothetical fear with you?
Have you actually ever seen a man presenting as a woman trying to enter your gym/changing room?^

It's not that you sound unduly sensitive, more that I can't understand why such a highly hypothetical event bothers you.

^go to a large and busy gym. I don't know what their policy on this issue is. In my years of visiting that gym - I have not seen men presenting as women in my changing room, or on a gym floor.
If and when that happens, and if that becomes an issue - I am sure we can, them discuss it with management.^

And sex offenders, dressing up as women to sneak into our changing rooms.... Really?

I am sorry but have you really never heard of men trying to covertly look at women naked? Or wanting expose themselves to women?
really never? you've clearly lived in some magical unicorn land without male sexual assault, please do give the rest of us the coordinates.

Why do you think all those men will continue to pervenon women in trains and parks and hope for a bit of naked flesh via mirror under a toilet door and risk prison^ when thy can not literally say I'm a woman and causally saunter in to a room full of naked women?

They can now literally say 'I'm a woman" and casually

There is zero reason to segregate by gender identity. I can see someone's gender identity dangling out of their shorts.

Hiding I am a wheelchair user my local swimming pool has only one disabled cubicle. I am obviously happy to wait if another disabled customer is using it, but why should I wait while a non disabled man uses it?

Because it is a mental illness? What needs to happen really is we need to start making everything suitable for everyone. Disabled/non disabled male female confused etc
I

After DD's swimming class there is a women's swim session. This is predominantly used by Muslim women, many in burkinis. Huge gaggle of Somali women paying their entrance fee as we left. I assume once this law comes in it will be very difficult for these women to use the leisure centre as there will be no way to stop any man from swimming during this session. Quite aside from anything else that makes me very angry indeed, it's like the fucking oppression Olympics top trumps. Somali women are hardly over-involved in public life, many will be refugees, poorly educated, but hey, let's make life just that bit more bloody difficult for them, to please a bunch of narc males

I'm sure the BNP etc won't use these laws to 'identify' as women and kick Muslim women out of public spaces.

How is this happening, the bill hasn't gone through yet? Is this legal?

RogueBiscuit

No, it's not 'legal'. That's partly because it's not illegal. It's not illegal to use, certainly the toilets, of the opposite sex. It's up to the owner of the business.

Culturally it has been unacceptable. Except in dire cases of need.

Unfortunately, it's now culturally acceptable.

Some would say it's fast becoming a sign of just how progressive and right-on a person thinks they are too.

Screw the fact that they aren't being progressive, right on or even considering the real-life threats and detrimental effects their "I'm so cool and down with the kids" attitude is having on an entire sex though.

I am going to write to my gym today which is a large national gym. I wondered if anyone had a template with a similar letter to another gym.

If and when that happens, and if that becomes an issue - I am sure we can, them discuss it with management.

The problem with waiting and hoping it never comes up, is that the poor woman or child who is affected has then to deal with it then and there. If harm is done, it’s then too late.

I think you were right not to renew your membership. Do you have friends who use the gym?

Perhaps there are other things you can do, depending on your circumstances. Obviously keep yourself safe.

Could you write a letter to head office, complaining about the changes and explain they are the reason you will not be renewing. Point out the Equalities Act and say it is legal for them to keep their facilities single sex. They will very likely have been informed otherwise.

Can you publicise these changes and urge others to do the same?

If you’re feeling courageous, organise a ManFriday event. Perhaps there are some Mumsnetters who would join you.

Good luck with whatever you decide.