UK gym to admit self ID'ing men into womens changing rooms

[Whatnextxx]

Here is the thing, went to renew my membership at the gym today but before I signed up asked about the policy of allowing self ID'ing men (i.e. men who decide to become "women" without surgery etc) access to womens changing rooms. The membership assistant didn't know and went to find out, she was gone quite a long time and came back ashen faced to tell me that if a man "presents" as a woman he would be allowed to use the womens changing room. I pointed to a little girl of about 5 or 6 and asked how she would explain a naked male in the changing room to her and did the same with an older women who looked to be around 70. She said she is shocked at the policy and wondered where the protection is for women and girls, she didn't have a clue about Justine Greenings proposals.

The thing is that the womens changing room has only 4 cubicles and they are at the far ends of the main open space so even if I or any woman was to use the cubicles we might emerge into an open space where naked men might be.

The assistant said she had spoken with the manager and asked what would happen if a sex offender pretended to be a woman. She told me that she didn't agree with the policy but that there was nothing she could do as the policy came from central office. What an awful position to put employees in.

She understood exactly why I didn't renew my membership.

I contacted the owner of the gym and to try to highlight the issue did it on Twitter. I was subjected to a barrage of horrible comments, one even accused me of being a jihadist!

So fed up with this, there seems to be nowhere for women to go without worrying that some male bodied person is going to come into spaces where women are changing.

Am I being unduly sensitive or am I realistically concerned about having my privacy and dignity taken away by men who think or want to behave "like a woman"?

Slightly unrelated I know, but I was thinking of how we can challenge all this self identifying. I wonder what the gym would do if I self identified as a man and went swimming in trunks only. Somehow I don't think they'd be very accepting of me swimming top less, but I don't have the courage to find out.

Maybe that's what we need to do as a backlash? Invade male spaces? Bet there'd be complaints if women identifying as men suddenly started going into the male changing rooms. Especially if we did it en masse.

Good point I think I might self-identify as a man go to the men's changing rooms at the gym and perve at all the gorgeous young men with their Adonis like bodies
I'm sure no one will mind

Twenty something guys wouldn't want to offend me by complaining when grandma starts checking out their package would they

Slightly unrelated I know, but I was thinking of how we can challenge all this self identifying. I wonder what the gym would do if I self identified as a man and went swimming in trunks only. Somehow I don't think they'd be very accepting of me swimming top less, but I don't have the courage to find out.

I think you hat would be an excellent way of making a statement- if some women had the balls to do it. You might find some men will do it too - like Joey Salad did with womens loos. Saw an interview with a man who did just this (think dutch maybe). Just self idntified to see what would happen.

It is time to wake up ladies. Find out about this before it takes hold. Read about the gender identification bill which goes to consultation this autumn and would make this legal. Make your views known to your MPs. We need to think about what the implications are for us, our mothers, daughters and granddaughters.

Maybe we need to try to organise a day of action, in which en masse people self identify as the opposite sex. I'll happily go into male changing rooms, and tbh I frequently use mens toilets if the women's has too much if a queue.

Without debating the full trans issue my concern here is the tone you snidely refer to as male bodied people

Please can we delineate that although you tried to cover yourself by saying the assistant mentioned sex offenders (I doubt that heavily)...your tone implies a reference to male bodied people being something to fear .... reference to it being quiet at certain times

I know you'll disengenuously claim nothing is said in the post but your tone is horrible and you're hiding behind technicalities

Here's my issue. .....I have two sons...why is it ok for you to insinuate that being male is something to be feared or be intimidated? Why do you believe being female gives you the right to judge and put other groups and genders down ? You feel uncomfortable? Great lovely......please consider it ok to implicate demonising of my son's gender because you have issues you can't deal with like a grown up?

I'm extremely feminist bordered with meritocracy....I wholeheartedly believe in safe places for all genders

What you have posted shows far more about your own issues and needing a scapegoat because you're not enlightened enough or adult enough to face them head on

I take offence because one day my boys , the ones that I bring up to respect all genders , to be aware that there is no definition of what creates respect other than giving respect .......one day those boys will come up against someone like you

Who will decide they are lesser or dangerous because of their gender

Just like once upon a time people did to women

But hey......as long as you made a tokenistic statement during your terribly middle class gym renewal

Most violence against women is by male bodied people. This does not mean that people think all men are potential rapists.

What the fucking fuck are you talking about Ralph??

Women don't want blokes in the women's changing rooms
bloke women in the men's changing rooms what's so hard to understand about that

*blokes don't want women in the men's changing rooms

Ralph I have 3 sons and don't get any of those things from the op. Your post makes no sense.

Wait so because you don't agree my post makes no sense? I don't care if you have three sons or not I do and I take offence

I'm allowed my opinion just as everyone else is and I really did get that....I'm really sick of the terror of safe space being invaded crap

You don't take offence .... Fabulous....I bloody do

And actually why the hell am I bothering .....you'll all just find some ridiculous cause to waste your time on

It does not seem to bother the Germans or Austrians to have mixed changing facilities. Maybe that is the way ahead.

Male violence is a pretty well documented phenomenon Ralph - and unfortunately most women can be overpowered by the average man, or did you think that women just couldn't be bothered to fight back?

'Who will decide they are lesser or dangerous because of their gender

Just like once upon a time people did to women'

Once upon a time? Are you for real?
Sexism against women is alive and well right now and people trying to take away women's rights to dignity and increase the risk of assault and voyeurism in order to prioritise a small number of woman-identifying men is a horribly good example of it.
You have sons. I have sons and a daughter and I am not going to support anything that diminishes her rights in favour of theirs.

@Josuk In my years of visiting that gym - I have not seen men presenting as women in my changing room, or on a gym floor. If and when that happens, and if that becomes an issue - I am sure we can, them discuss it with management.

Bit bloody late by then, isn't it? Or do you routinely wait until decisions have been made and announced before getting involved and stating any objections?

e.g. If the hairdresser gets out the clippers, do you wait till after she's done the first grade 1 pass over your scalp; or do you stop her and question her intention beforehand?

Or if your neighbour wants to erect a 30' observation post in his garden, do you wait till it's got planning permission and the structure is above your fenceline before you inquire whether it will be overlooking your home?

ralph I don't have "terror" of men but I've come across enough pervs in my life not to want men near me in a changing room because they say they feel like a woman. Google voyeurism in changing rooms. There are loads of men out there who get their kicks filming/watching women change, I'm sure they will be delighted to have a way to get into these places without having to sneak in.
larry I have no issue with transsexuals or genuine transgender people using the changing room, it's the fact men can walk in there by saying they "feel like a woman" and we are expected to be fine with that.

It baffles me that we vet people working with children, don't allow them to be alone with children etc etc because we know children are vulnerable and paedophiles take advantage of opportunities to get close to children to abuse them so we reduce opportunities.
Yet despite knowing there is a section of males who want to access women's spaces for sexual gratification, we are removing the opportunity women have to protect themselves I. E. By being able to challenge a man in the changing room and have him removed. We are refusing to acknowledge that sex offenders will exploit opportunities to abuse women despite knowing that's how they operate.

The narrative is if he is there to commit a crime he can be arrested. Well 1) Tell that to the victim and 2) We don't have a great track record of prosecuting sex offenders.

It's not always about violence and whether anything would happen to the women put in a vulnerable situation, although of course that's a possibility. That situation should never even happen in the first place.
As harmless as they may be, I do not want a random male to see my naked body, nor do I want to see a naked man's body parts other than my partner's.

All of this infuriates me, why should women (and children who are most of the time with their mothers in changing rooms) who make up 50% of the population give up their privacy and protection of sex segregated spaces to the 0.1% of Transgender people? I am happy for them to have their own space created for them and I would be willing to share women's spaces with those who have fully transitioned (I.e. No longer have a penis) but I do not want I spaces opened up for men who simply 'feel' like a woman and still retain a penis. I have been raped, as have many other women I know and I don't think we should be forced to be undressing in front of male bodied people.

I hope that this gender feelz tyranny is nipped in the bud before it is made law, but sadly I believe it is going to happen and we will have lost the right to sex segregated spaces.

I don't have a terror of men either. Most of the men in my life have been lovely. In all honesty I didn't realise that so many women feared men until I started reading mumsnet. But if I'd had the life experiences of a lot of those women I'd fear men too.

Telling women who have had previous experiences that make them fearful of men that they are silly and need to get over it and what about the poor men and their hurt feelings isn't very helpful. If someone has been mauled by a dog and fears dogs as a result, we tend to say 'that's understandable'. But if a woman has suffered violence at the hands of a man, or as is often the case a succession of men, she's often accused of being hateful and unreasonable for being wary of men as a group. It's weird.

For me, it is purely about privacy. Not fear. I want privacy from men, I don't want to be naked in front of a strange man. I don't think that's unusual or unreasonable.

What policy would most people want for transsexuals

This isn't about what you know as term transexuals.

The old fashioned type transexual has been discreetly using women's toilets and changing rooms for decades.

What has changed is that transgender(not transexual as this word is nearly obsolete) now refers to any male that says they are woman.

So what you understand to be someone gone/going through extensive body disphorbia and going through surgery to relieve this feeling after having years of medical and therapy help. Isn't just what trans gender means now.

As I said above any male can now just say they are a woman, and it would be hate speech to challenge their presence in a women's space.

ralph, I wonder if you're misinterpreting male bodied people?

Because you refer to it as being snide?

It's the language one has to use otherwise one is considered transphobic. I sincerely wish we could just talk about men and women. But we can't. Because some women have penises. So you have to talk about bodies, as in 'male bodied'.

Talking about men and women no longer makes a distinction between the biological characteristics of those two groups.

Men have vaginas and women have penises. You will absolutely be accused of bigotry and transphobia if you assume otherwise.