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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

women are underrepresented in tech because of inherent psychological differences

172 replies

MineKraftCheese · 07/08/2017 12:35

http://gizmodo.com/exclusive-heres-the-full-10-page-anti-diversity-screed-1797564320

This is horrendous! I don't know where to start but I'm boiling with rage.

So many awful gender stereotypes and weird lies and biological "truths".

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AssassinatedBeauty · 07/08/2017 12:46

I saw one of the responses to this which pointed out that not only does this man hold such views, he felt safe enough to write them and distribute them to his colleagues as a serious discussion piece.

I don't even want to get into refuting the content because it's such guff, and someone like this guy wouldn't be interested in being challenged. As much as his fake "good guy" persona would like to pretend that he's open to debate and criticism.

PricklyBall · 07/08/2017 12:58

You're right - the feeling safe to post and distribute as a "serious discussion piece" is really bad. I feel like I should re-read Susan Faludi's backlash, because it feels like we're in the middle of a particularly virulent one right now, but at the same time I'm not sure I can bring myself to do it.

MineKraftCheese · 07/08/2017 13:02

@PricklyBall I've never read it but I feel now might be a good time. I've only heard of it because Bridget Jones's mate Shazzer is a fan Blush

I just want to do something to feel less helpless as a woman. Everywhere I look there is this sort of thing. And for the many who are obviously sickened by attitudes like this guy's, there are loads of people who continue to believe that women are genuinely inferior.

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DJBaggySmalls · 07/08/2017 13:37

women are underrepresented in tech because of inherent psychological differences

One massive difference being that many men just cant not harass women.
www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jul/09/silicon-valley-sexual-harassment-women-speak-up

BasketOfDeplorables · 07/08/2017 13:56

It's 10 pages long! In all that, where is the science?

slightlyglittermaned · 07/08/2017 14:15

This, from a former Google manager is the most widely quoted rebuttal so far: medium.com/@yonatanzunger/so-about-this-googlers-manifesto-1e3773ed1788

QuentinSummers · 07/08/2017 22:44

minecraft love shazzer! Fuckwittage!

DrDreReturns · 08/08/2017 07:01

The author has been sacked.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-40859004

theporcinegrappler · 08/08/2017 08:47

Utter gobshite
He mentions evolutionary psychology
enough said🤣😂😆

Fixmylife · 08/08/2017 09:38

DrDre sacked and rightly so! There is far more gender equality in tech in countries like India. Also I am old and when I worked in tech I worked with more women than are now going into tech, that is the effect of our societal changes since the 90s.

MeRichard · 08/08/2017 11:07

Why does this guy deserve to be sacked?

We know that to be reckless enough to take corners successfully at high speed but not too reckless that you crash then you have to have been exposed to just the right level of testosterone in the womb. We also know that this dose is rare in men but much rarer in women. Being able to drive a car around a corner at a controlled but unsafe speed is a weird evolutionary spin-off. However it is useful to racing drivers and means you will always see more female success on the standing quarter mile than in circuit racing, relative to men. So there are some inherited characteristics that can change our ability or preference for particular tasks or roles which are gender biased.

Now, it is pretty clear that everyone here thinks that this guy is wrong and I guess on pretty well every point he makes. So they disagree - which is fine. He believes that there is an inherited statistical gender bias while other people believe there is not.

He has been criticised for not quoting the science and that may be a fair criticism. I trust everyone here quotes fundamental scientific research every time they write an email or letter. We know there are differences between genders though as in the explanation above and this research; www.newscientist.com/article/dn13596-male-monkeys-prefer-boys-toys/ Niether of which might be specifically relevant here but shows that you cannot dismiss inhereted gender preferences or performances.

My point is this. An employee of Google has voiced an opinion, his opinion. He did not say, as far as I could see, that women could not fulfil any particular roles or should not do them or would not do them well. He did not portray one gender as lesser or less deserving. He took care to point out that each person was an individual. He could still be wrong in his ideas. You know what, most of us are wrong about most things most of the time. How on earth though does someone with a title of Vice President of DIVERSITY explain though that the Google has sacked someone for holding an opinion which is different to theirs? Which is what appears to have happened. What does diversity mean?

EBearhug · 08/08/2017 11:34

I shall come back to this when I've read it...

slightlyglittermaned · 08/08/2017 11:34

Read the link back up there from Yonatan Zunger who is a former senior Google manager if you want to know why he was sacked.

Diversity has never meant you don't need to be competent at your job and Mr Bronifesto clearly lacks essential skills for being competent in a senior engineering role.

MineKraftCheese · 08/08/2017 11:36

Good news. I hope they find a woman to replace him tbh.

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slightlyglittermaned · 08/08/2017 11:38

Anyway I hope this thread will move on from the frankly unutterably boring "oooohhh my god but IDEOLOGICAL DIVERSITY" derail.

I agree with Sarah Mei - the Google response isn't promising. Psychological safety my arse.

MeRichard · 08/08/2017 16:16

As I said already, you may disagree with this guy. People have said here that there is no scientific evidence and yet there is. It may not mean anything or be conclusive or be relevant but it is not zero.

Then you get this interpretation that he has said women can't do the job. At no point does he say that. Yonatan Zunger suggests that he argues "that some large fraction of your colleagues are at root not good enough to do their jobs". But where? Somehow he has made that up himself as he read the piece.

The author instead says that on average fewer women are interested in doing the roles and that such disinclination is inherited. He does not say that those women who are interested are less so or that they are less good, simply that there are less of them.

Now, that sentiment about inherited disinclination could be nonsense but just because in your opinion what he is saying is wrong does not mean you have the right and the logic to turn what he is saying into something else, saying that women can't do the job, or won't do the job or shouldn't be doing the job. None of that is in there.

It still feels to me that sacking someone because they say they "believe it is possible that on average fewer women inherit an inclination write code" is an attack on diversity not a promotion of it.

MineKraftCheese · 08/08/2017 16:23

@MeRichard "sacked someone for holding an opinion which is different to theirs?"

He was sacked for opinions. He was stating things as scientific fact. The things are not true.

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MineKraftCheese · 08/08/2017 16:24

*wasn't sacked for opinions

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slightlyglittermaned · 08/08/2017 16:55

Apparently someone rang Harvard who confirmed that the guy never did complete the PhD.

MeRichard · 08/08/2017 17:10

@MineKraftCheese I am sure lots of what he said wasn't true but what specifically did he claim as scientific fact?

MeRichard · 08/08/2017 17:53

I know that no-one wants to acknowledge anything in the piece that this guy wrote was based on science, so you will not want to read this:
www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sexual-personalities/201708/google-memo-about-sex-differences
It is by a psychologist claiming that he is referenced by the piece. He confirms that there are statistical differences between genders and then goes on to say that the author makes the mistake of elevating their significance. So in summary that this bit of science is right but has had much too much weight within the author's arguments.

slightlyglittermaned · 08/08/2017 17:55

Yes dear.

AssassinatedBeauty · 08/08/2017 18:14

So the wording of why he was sacked is slightly incorrect, in that he was sacked for interpreting the science incorrectly and incorrectly applying it to his work context, and promoting this as an absolute fact. Good that's cleared up.

I am sick to death of science being used to justify and embed misogyny. Whatever sex differences there may be, both negative and positive in either direction in whatever specific context, are not significant enough that it justifies discriminating, covertly or overtly, against an individual based on their sex. As if women are just going to say "oh, ok, science says we're all as a sex inferior at all the important/prestigious/highly paid aspects of being a human! Fair enough, please discriminate against us as much as you like!" FFS.

PricklyBall · 08/08/2017 18:24

Ah yes, that well known cutting-edge peer-reviewed neurology journal, Psychology Today. That would be almost funny were it not for the fact that our new little friend actually thinks he's citing serious science. (And yes, I do have publications in Nature to my name).

LilaoftheGreenwood · 08/08/2017 18:38

Also enjoyed this multi-tweet rant: twitter.com/DrNerdLove/status/894199877214896128

I'm generally done with arseholes wanting positions to be "up for debate" which are frankly fucking heinous, and I'm only slightly less done with the unthinking egotistical twats who say they don't agree with them but defend them "on principle". That's how we've ended up with actual fucking fascists in the world again. If you're an arsehole, fuck off. If you're an unthinking egotistical twat, get over yourself and stop giving cover to arseholes.

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