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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

women are underrepresented in tech because of inherent psychological differences

172 replies

MineKraftCheese · 07/08/2017 12:35

http://gizmodo.com/exclusive-heres-the-full-10-page-anti-diversity-screed-1797564320

This is horrendous! I don't know where to start but I'm boiling with rage.

So many awful gender stereotypes and weird lies and biological "truths".

OP posts:
Datun · 14/08/2017 07:32

EBearhug

Do the diversity courses that you get invited to mention things like a hostile environment for women, sexism etc? It's hard enough telling men you know about male sexism without them getting defensive. Delivering content to a group of men about it, sounds difficult. Do they actually address the real problem? Or do they do it obliquely?

EBearhug · 14/08/2017 23:53

Do the diversity courses that you get invited to mention things like a hostile environment for women, sexism etc?

Not overtly, except for extreme examples that you wouldn't see in a modern corporate environment anyway, like page 3 pin-ups. This means that when I do something like give my manager a list of sexist things which have happened to me over the years, he says, "none of that is anything like the examples in that course. There is no sexism." (Which reminds me, need to raise the issue of me being the only one in the department getting a load of stuff about needing to empathise with people, and consider how I make them feel, but if anyone says anything which upsets me, I must not react emotionally. They have no idea just how bloody restrained I am sometimes, and how I hold in my emotional reactions...)

I think if you were to say, you're all creating a hostile environment and you need to stop wouldn't be helpful. They're either going to say, it''s not me, or, it's just a bit of banter, can't we even have a joke these days? (To which I say, if it's sexist or racist or homophobic, then no.) So it needs to be handled carefully to be effective, but mostly, I don't think it's even being approached obliquely - we preach to the converted and don't even try with the rest.

slightlyglittermaned · 15/08/2017 01:08

That's pretty sad EBearhug. Sounds like a very draining environment to be in. Sad

I just read this piece which seemed to have a bit more empathy for just how wearing it is. I hope it gets through to more men in the industry.
medium.com/@jackdanger/if-you-want-to-debate-the-googlers-manifesto-and-you-re-also-a-good-person-64d845fbe75e

EBearhug · 15/08/2017 08:41

I like that article, slightlyglittermaned. This bit - Which is precisely why we have trouble retaining women and other minorities in this field. Not because they can’t do the work, they just don’t want to do it while putting up with the environment we’ve created.

It's one of the main reasons the rate of attrition for women in their 30s and 40s is so high. It is draining.

BWatchWatcher · 15/08/2017 08:41

Oh God, 'banter'.
You're right EBearhug, we do end up preaching to the converted.

slightlyglittermaned · 15/08/2017 09:41

I think this is what some people (especially confident 25 year old women going through that "I'm just one of the boys, I'm cool" stage) don't get about women's events - it's basically like coming up for air periodically to just be able to breathe and talk geeky stuff without all the added shit

I'm in an environment now where I can actually breathe - the background chittering of constant little jokes isn't really there. The problem for me now is that it's not necessarily that great for my career to stay in the same place forever, but then jumping back into an unknown doesn't appeal. Still, it's a better problem to have than actually being in a constantly draining environment.

Datun · 15/08/2017 10:30

EBearhug

Thanks for your reply. I agree, preaching to the choir is pointless.

Explaining to men how even unconscious sexism is a problem just ends up with them getting defensive.

The author of The man Who Has It All, flips things around. Just replacing the word woman with the word man, has some eye-catching results.

(Especially some of the earlier stuff).

mobile.twitter.com/manwhohasitall?lang=en

slightlyglittermaned · 15/08/2017 14:06

One thing that has been heartening in the whole Memo debacle is seeing well known and respected men in the industry doing their job and speaking up. E.g. Jez Humble, Martin Fowler, etc - arguing with people like "Uncle" Bob Martin who has come out as a complete apologist for Google Memo guy.

I'm hoping that those who won't listen to a woman on this will actually pay attention to a man, and that this might have a chance at breaking out of the "preaching to the choir" effect. Frankly, while the extreme end are unsavable, we need men to speak up as it shifts the Overton window away from the misogynists.

EBearhug · 15/08/2017 14:37

while the extreme end are unsavable, weneedmen to speak up as it shifts the Overton window away from the misogynists.

This.

Not sure if many of them are talking about this story, though. I know for sure that certain people among my colleagues don't follow the news. I haven't raised it with them, because I just don't have the energy for the "it's not like that here, though," answers.

EBearhug · 15/08/2017 14:38

I have also liked all the people (mostly women) who've been interviewed about the history of women in computing, but again, I suspect the people who need to hear about it haven't been listening/reading.

AssassinatedBeauty · 15/08/2017 16:30

Just saw this interesting response in the Economist:

www.economist.com/news/21726276-last-week-paper-said-alphabets-boss-should-write-detailed-ringing-rebuttal

QuentinSummers · 15/08/2017 18:35

A lot of the men I know are either indifferent or think he's been taken out of context Shock

EBearhug · 15/08/2017 23:53

A lot of the men I know are either indifferent or think he's been taken out of context

And that's why things are taking a long while to improve. They just don't see it.

SpaghettiAndMeatballs · 16/08/2017 10:00

I liked that Economist article, and then I read the comments.... sigh....

I read the original memo. It was the general, usual cherry picking. But what really made me roll my eyes was this:

Having representative viewpoints is important for those designing and testing our products, but the benefits are less clear for those more removed from UX.

As a developer, I know this one. I spent a fair whack of my early days resisting being pushed into front end/test stuff (luckily, I'm very good, and I often enough had bosses that were very good, and who could see that I would be better used writing code in the guts rather than only do the bits the other developers didn't want to do). And not that these things aren't important - a good tester is worth their weight in gold, decent requirements and good UX design can save an otherwise mediocre program - it's just not where my strengths lie - and I hate that it's somehow seen as the women's realm in so many teams.

A woman has been promoted above him, or rejected his pull request, or got a peach project that he wanted and he doesn't think she's qualified for, and he's lashing out. He wants women away from the stuff that he does - not in my backyard.

He was employed at google, he must have been good (I've not worked for them, but I've been offered a job at Amazon which has similarly stringent hiring processes) - he got annoyed, and thinks that expending resources to find a diverse range of employees means that they're letting other people in who aren't as good as him, when those two things aren't related.

White male devs are as easy to find as brown stones on the beach, whereas you have to search a bit to find the pink or white ones - doesn't make the brown stones naturally better, doesn't mean that you're accepting substandard white or pink ones, just means that you have to search a bit harder to find them.

noblegiraffe · 18/08/2017 11:06

Prepare to shed tears for Google Guy, because being a conservative at Google is like being gay in the 1950s.

uk.businessinsider.com/james-damore-interview-video-2017-8?r=US&IR=T

QuentinSummers · 18/08/2017 16:08

What a knob

QuentinSummers · 18/08/2017 16:18

Omfg I wish I could get in touch with Damerel. Just found a psychology today article showing that low IQ is correlated with conservatism. Thats why there are less Conservatives at Google, because they aren't clever enough for the jobs. Just biology, amirite. Nothing to be offended by here, Damore

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/blog/millennial-media/201304/do-racism-conservatism-and-low-iq-go-hand-in-hand%3famp

barbarabraveheart · 18/08/2017 17:43

Does anyone have a link to that article/paper/ebsite that shows the different numbers of women in stem fields in different countries?

bundevac · 18/08/2017 19:51

Does anyone have a link to that article/paper/ebsite that shows the different numbers of women in stem fields in different countries?

computing and mathematics:

homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/vgalpin1/ps/Gal02a.pdf

barbarabraveheart · 19/08/2017 14:28

Thanks bundevac that's great!

Is there anything more recent? I seem to remember guy posting something on here a while back.

QuentinSummers · 19/08/2017 14:53

This one?
contexts.org/articles/what-gender-is-science/

slightlyglittermaned · 20/08/2017 13:19

This is excellent, and has tons of links for further reading:
medium.com/@tweetingmouse/the-truth-has-got-its-boots-on-what-the-evidence-says-about-mr-damores-google-memo-bc93c8b2fdb9
It's long, but every section is a gem.

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