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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Please talk to me about feminism and capitalism!

152 replies

QuentinSummers · 04/08/2017 18:36

On the "what kind of feminist are you?" quiz that's been shared here a couple of times there are a couple of questions suggesting women can't become equal under capitalism.
Then the other day I read about non earners (who are predominantly women) having no value in a capitalist system.
I don't know about political theory but sure someone here will. Could someone explain how feminism and capitalism could or couldn't work together?
Intuitively I feel like our economic/political system does need to change to take into account the unpaid work needed to run a household/raise children/look after people in society who can't support themselves. What political systems would support this and how?
Thanks everyone!

OP posts:
Moussemoose · 06/08/2017 16:29

Interesting points user1498662042
The failure of capitalism has created the 'manchild' by destroying the role of working class 'provider man'. Is it the responsibility of feminists to find a new role for these men? Absolutely not.

However, until these men find a role within the capitalist economic system it will have a massive detrimental effect on the lives of working class women. Capitalism has no need for these men and has spat them out.

We need an economic system that values all contributions to society not just economic contributions.

user1498662042 · 06/08/2017 16:39

Is it the responsibility of feminists to find a new role for these men? Absolutely not.

No, of course not - and the manchild rage as represented by Trump cannot be justified in those terms. But we do have to try and understand what is happening in terms of a capitalist culture that is in crisis. Trump and all this masculinist, right-wing rage is a reaction to that crisis - albeit a terrifying, pathological one. Capitalist liberalism has failed.

I agree with everything you say, basically. :)

makeourfuture · 06/08/2017 17:21

User, how do you factor in things like global warming/resources scarcity? These social conditions you speak of sound almost like a prelude to global conflict.

user1498662042 · 06/08/2017 18:18

User, how do you factor in things like global warming/resources scarcity? These social conditions you speak of sound almost like a prelude to global conflict.

They could be - it's very worrying. That's why I think the EU, for all that might be corrupt about it's financial politics, is really worth maintaining. The challenges of the future - ecological devastation, resources scarcity like you say, big data, biogenetics, AI taking people's jobs, terrorism, cyberterrorism - can only be addressed by trans-national organisations. If the big progressive international structures collapse then they will be back to a world of warring nation states, but in many ways in a far more volatile world than ever before. In fact what we are seeing asrise is what I would call ‘fascist neoliberalism’. It’s assumed that people like Trump represent a reaction against global capitalism. They don’t. Rather Trump - along with Modi in India, Xi Jinping in China and to some extent Putin - are authoritarian nationalists at home but fully integrated into the capitalist system. We cannot automatically associate capitalism with liberalism anymore. We have this global economy that is committed to ruthless market competition but with all these ethnic fundamentalists and conservative nationalists all over the place. It's like the worst possible combination.

As for liberalism itself, it’s been perverted by capitalism into something really quite warped. Moral conservatives kind of have a limited point when they say ‘society has gone to the dogs since the 60’s’. It kind of has in certain ways. There are eight year olds watching bestiality on their smartphones for god’s sake. But the reason for that is a capitalist system that’s elevation of profit as the supreme value overrides all morals, all taboos, all social ethics. It will continue lto run amok ike a rabid dog until it destroys the planet.

Even multiculturalism has in a sense failed. We liberals should admit that. And that’s not because people of different culture’s cannot co-exist harmoniously as the anti-immigrant right say, it is because they cannot do so in a neoliberal system predicated on scarcity and competition. How is everyone to just get along in such a system? Integration is good, but people need a proper socialised space within which they can integrate. Men and women need structures within which they can develop healthy relations. Those structures are lacking

SummerflowerXx · 06/08/2017 19:47

But the thing is that global warming and scarcity of natural resources is a result of neoliberal globalisation, really. And in a sense, if I understand you, user, it is the Milton Friedman kind of capitalist system you are decrying. Free markets with minimal state intervention.

I don't think this equates with classical liberalism, which also incorporated the idea of freedom but at the same time, not at the expense of others. I mean, Lloyd George's government was Liberal in the classical sense, and introduced pensions and national insurance. Granted, NI favoured working men and single women, and not married women, but if you think about legislation on working conditions etc in the nineteenth century, these benefitted the (male) workers and not the elites. So in the nineteenth century, there was free trade, but also social reform.

The liberal feminist argument, as I understand it, for legal and political equality was on the basis that if the playing field was level, then it was up to the individual to further themselves. The state was required to provide legislation for equality. Whereas the neoliberal position is that the state stays out of it completely. In between, you have radical feminism and socialist feminism, which in different ways, seek to dismantle the 'system'

It is an interesting question about globalisation because not all countries in a global market have the same economic system. Would you have the same tranch of disaffected young men in deindustrialised Glasgow as Detroit for example? Both advanced capitalist countries, but I don't know if your bleak picture for young men and positive picture for young women is universal, or even valid. Particularly black women.

And then there is the point about whose responsibility is it to fix it? The people at the top politically are (mostly) men. Patriarchy is not just about power over women, but about hierarchies of men (who have power over each other as well as men). Alpha men would need to let go of a chunk of privilege for the greater good.

I think it is all our responsibility to fix it, I have a daughter but I also have a son. But if you make big global questions, that is too much to fix. And if you make big, apocalyptic, global questions, that is too depressing to contemplate. So the point really is maybe start by recognising that humans are most like other humans than anything else on the planet. But humans also have a responsibility for everything else on the planet.

user1498662042 · 06/08/2017 20:20

The liberal feminist argument, as I understand it, for legal and political equality was on the basis that if the playing field was level, then it was up to the individual to further themselves.

That's the problem. What does 'further' oneself mean?

I think, first of all, there is a distinction to be drawn between progressivism and liberalism in the postmodern, late capitalist sense. Progressivism concerns the collective struggles, legal reforms and social ideals that you refer to: I would also say it encompasses the labour movement more broadly, as well as the struggles for women's rights and civil rights. Although it originated somewhere in 18th century enlightenment discourse, the great progressive era ran from the reformism of the 19th century - via universal suffrage, colonial emancipation, civil rights - right through to somewhere in the middle of the twentieth century. It is important to note that these movements were predicated on a concept of social justice: their purpose was not to free up the individual to do whatsoever he or she wanted in an open marketplace, but to create a functional and ethical society for all.

To this I would strongly contrast late capitalist liberalism which elevates the rights of the desocialised individual as a supreme value. As you say, the law according to this form of liberalism purely exists to provide a space in which the individual can 'further themselves' within a market system of innumerable choices. This is the Friedmanite neoliberalism which you also refer to: it recognises no concept of society or any value consensus beyond which it's fine to do as you please so long as you don't stop anyone else from doing what they want. In other words, this liberal individualism proposes that the individual should be free to pursue whatever forms legal of self-interest she or he pleases.

It is commonly assumed that neoliberal ideology just suddenly became manifest in the late 1970's, with the rise of the Thatcher and Reagan governments. However I would argue - controversially perhaps - that the advent of neoliberalism was the 1960's, and the people who gave it the most powerful expression were the counter-cultural left. The 1960's and the sexual revolution led to many achievements, but the bourgeoise student left ideal of an individual liberated from normative morals and a dictatorial state is actually exactly the same species of liberalism espoused by Thatcher, Reagan, Friedman and Kieth Joseph twenty years later. It was perfectly natural that so many of the hippies of the 1960's became the capitalist entrepreneurs of the 1980's.

The left that the 1960's birthed were very different from the old left. Here is a very persuasive argument that sexual liberationism was effectively the advocation of a sexual version of the neoliberal free market:

www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2012/10/10/3607967.htm

Of particular note:

All that said, it is worth noting something very strange at this point. The fight against the patriarchy came to be associated with the removal of social norms that limited freedom in the sexual arena. But doesn't this observation make the sexual revolution sound like the right-wing financial deregulation that preceded the GFC? Or, to ask the question another way, does the sexual revolution lie to the left, or the right?

..though read the whole thing, he's bang on.

Controversially, I would argue that many of the ideologies of the contemporary cultural left - including liberal feminism - ARE projections of neoliberalism.

Moussemoose · 06/08/2017 20:34

SummerflowerXx several points:

but if you think about legislation on working conditions etc in the nineteenth century, these benefitted the (male) workers and not the elites. So in the nineteenth century, there was free trade, but also social reform

These reforms were introduced to benefit the elites as they were meant to halt the progress of the Labour Party - they were not an altruistic measure. Capitalism doing the minimum necessary as a sop to the working classes. Social reform in the 19th century too little, too late.

deindustrialised Glasgow as Detroit both suffer from similar disempowered working class men, both areas very negative for men with the knock on effects for working class women. Nothing positive for working class men or women black or white. Capitalism has lost interest and abandoned those people.

Capitalism commodifies humanity it has no interest in man or woman, black or white. We need an economic system that values input into society - free trade has not given us that in any century. Central government or 'society' must have an input it can not be left to the markets if we want any serious movement on feminist issues.

If feminism attempts to separate itself from the economic dynamics of society no real changes can be made.

user1498662042 · 06/08/2017 20:38

Would you have the same tranch of disaffected young men in deindustrialised Glasgow as Detroit for example? Both advanced capitalist countries, but I don't know if your bleak picture for young men and positive picture for young women is universal, or even valid. Particularly black women.

Well I would say they're pretty comparable.

I'm not saying the picture is all positive for women - they have their own set of problems.

There is something strange happening though. The philosopher Alain Badiou makes the following argument.

Men, traditionally are what Badiou terms 'One' - they are associated with unity, hierarchy the universal order, the godhead etc etc. Women however are, or were, 'Two': they are divided into madonna/whore, virgin/harlot and all the other derogatory binaries you can think of. He also makes the point that it is precisely because women give birth that they were hidden with the domestic domain, because they serve as a kind of proof that God - and thus the patriarchal society - is unnecessary. They are evidence of God's non-existence. Not sure about the last bit, but he's on to something..

Anyway, one of Badiou's adopted teenage sons got into some sort of trouble with the law, and as a result various legal and social agencies became involved. Most of these administrators, Badiou writes, were women who were simultaneously very maternal in their attitudes to his son but also quite hard and administrative.

And Badiou says that in the context of late capitalism, the wayward, perpetually adolescent man child prone to irrational behaviour (represented by Trump) and the ruthless, pragmatic administrator (Clinton, Merkel) are new gender archetypes; but also that this female archetype is a new 'One'.

Interesting isn't it?

Of course, Trump won and he's trying to reimpose the order of the male 'one', but in the most hopeless, farcical way possible. He couldn't be a great man of history if he tried. He's a clown.

user1498662042 · 06/08/2017 20:49

Moussemoose, I completely agree.

We ned to forge a new consensus of the kind of just and progressive society we want.

However, due to the internet and it's fracturing of social reality into endless opinions and echo chambers, I'm not sure that's possible.

For better of worse , all the ideologies that used to glue society together - religion, socialism - have gone.

SummerflowerXx · 06/08/2017 21:04

You have out-debated me, now. Interesting as it is, I have a house to clean and DC to get to bed... which I cannot outsource!

Just one point, I don't think feminism can separate itself from the economics of society - women are part of the economy, whether that is productive paid labour or unpaid reproductive labour. And I think probably every economic situation in history has had female participation. Hence, trying to understand the implications of different economic systems politically and the types of feminism they gave rise to (or eroded).

Trades unions historically are pretty anti-women - so I think labour reform was intended to preserve the male breadwinner ideal and the family wage as much as anything else. It may have served the elite, but it also served the working man. Factory legislation removed women from certain occupations. This has happened time and time again historically- consider after WW1 when women relinquished their war jobs back to men. The reason working class women have jobs now is because these jobs are traditionally the types of jobs which were seen as 'female' - part-time, lower paid, service industry.

The example of Sports Direct upthread is interesting because in actuality, most retail jobs are held by women. Speaking of one post-industrial city shopping mall, the working class male comment was 'the only jobs are in the XXXX shopping centre, who works there??' Well, the answer is that the women do. Serving, smiling, stacking shelves, made up, well groomed etc. And retail and service have always been women's jobs, so to speak. So if we are talking about women having jobs more than men in certain places, it is also a product of long held gender stereotypes about what women's work is, not women displacing men.

In the west, I mean, I don't know enough about Asian economies.

SummerflowerXx · 06/08/2017 21:09

I am a bit lost with the Badoui (sp?) stuff, but social care roles (family protection, social work etc) have historically also been female so I am not sure this is a new female archetype Hmm

But I confess to not really understanding how one generalises from one's son's experience to womanhood in general, anyway.

SummerflowerXx · 06/08/2017 21:10

And plus the two categories (angel or whore) were socially imposed to control women.

user1498662042 · 06/08/2017 21:18

Right….but surely then the argument should not be against labour reforms and trades unions in and of themselves, but the exclusion of women from labour reforms and trades unions. After all, without trades unions all those women in low paid jobs like hotel work and care are going to be fucked. There is no other way to ensure their rights.

There is a very problematic strain of third wave feminist discourse that is implicitly pro-market and anti-state. It bespeaks of a sense that open markets are somehow femininely oceanic and ecosystemic; whereas statism is felt to be patriarchally determinative and authoritarian. No, structures are needed. A enforced order is needed. A clear, legislative agenda of reform is needed. I’m quite happy for women to be doing the enforcing, but someone has to.

SummerflowerXx · 06/08/2017 21:21

I have never heard of open markets being described as femininely oceanic - do you have a citation?

user1498662042 · 06/08/2017 21:22

I take your pint regarding retail, but in the future I can imagine a job in a shop being a privileged position - particularly when you're front of house and just have to smile and look pretty. As awful as that sounds, there are worse ways to make your living these days. I work at Sainsbury's part-time myself atm, and I'm considered lucky round here to have that job.

Anyway, really interesting chatting to you. :)

SummerflowerXx · 06/08/2017 21:30

indeed, lots to think about Smile

user1498662042 · 06/08/2017 21:31

No, it's an implication.

Jacqueline Rose and others have derogated the enlightenment ideal to control the world through reason as patriarchal; conversely elevating a kind of loss of control as liberating.

Let feminism, then, be the place in our culture that asks everyone, women and men, to recognise the failure of the present dispensation – its stiff-backed control, its ruthless belief in its own mastery, its doomed attempt to bring the uncertainty of the world to heel.

Feminism should alert us to the world's unreason. But it should also insist that to respond by making reason's diktat our sole mantra and guide is as impoverishing as it is deluded and dangerous.

www.theguardian.com/books/2014/oct/17/we-need-bold-scandalous-feminism-malala-yousafzai

It is implicitly anti-structural, anti-state.

You also get it in a lot of what I would call 'entrepreneurial feminism'.

stanfordpress.typepad.com/blog/2015/04/the-feminist-entrepreneur.html

It's basically neoliberalism but glossed over with talk of co-operation, egalitarianism and horizontal business models.

It's rubbish.

QuentinSummers · 06/08/2017 21:35

particularly when you're front of house and just have to smile and look pretty.

Omfg. Way to massively underestimate what women working front of house actually do.

Your views on women aren't very well disguised......

OP posts:
Moussemoose · 06/08/2017 21:46

QuentinSummers

Omgf -indeed.

Thankyou for that eloquent and well thought out response to the complex political issues discussed.

I believe user1498662042 may well have been referring to their own job in retail when saying you just have to smile and look pretty

user1498662042 · 06/08/2017 21:52

Omfg. Way to massively underestimate what women working front of house actually do.

It's what I do, on a checkout. I don't look pretty but I do smile a lot.

Moussemoose · 06/08/2017 21:59

user1498662042

I bet you look pretty and you have a cute ass!Grin

user1498662042 · 06/08/2017 22:02

Sorry to disappoint you on that front Moussemoose!

Moussemoose · 06/08/2017 22:03

Gutted

SummerflowerXx · 07/08/2017 06:49

user149 thanks, i will look at that.
Surely the problem with Enlightenment reason (which is the rational structure the west is principally founded upon) is really masculine in orientation though. It was Enlightenment reason which elevated men to the rational, knowledgeable expert and reduced women to biology, and based this in emerging scientific understanding of reproduction.

It is things like emotion, intuition and feeling which were erased - if you think about early modern medicine, you will still find material on the five passions in medical books (though I cannot remember what they are). This kind of stuff was superseded by scientific medicine (which was male, by definition).

And the Enlightenment is where classical Liberalism grew up, so to speak. So, I would need some convincing that reason and neoliberalism are oppositional categories, if that is indeed what you are suggesting. Neoliberalism is surely the laws of reason as regards the free market taken to its logical conclusion.

What is wrong with egalitarianism, cooperation and horizontal business models? (Not read the article, but as values, I don't see these are problematic). Though maybe it is the emphasis on business and everything still serving the market. Sigh. I am fed up of consumerism.

But then a society where we grow our own veg in our gardens and make our own clothes is not really possible any more either, so we need some production and trade. Why should that not be egalitarian?

SummerflowerXx · 07/08/2017 06:58

My first sentence is missing some words - it should say 'Surely the problem with Enlightenment reason... is that it is really masculine in orientation.

I am guessing you are a bloke user149, though I got this from other poster's comments, not anything you posted. That said, I work in an almost 100% male environment so there may be nuances of communication i am used to (that said, I am used to the brocialist, what about working class men argument, which I think is relevant but not as a zero sum game).

Anyway, i wonder if your job in retail is because food is a non-gender specific commodity. If you go to any shopping mall, the vast majority of sales staff are female. You find the men in the car showrooms, phone and tech stores, shoe repair shops. Just my impression.