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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Please talk to me about feminism and capitalism!

152 replies

QuentinSummers · 04/08/2017 18:36

On the "what kind of feminist are you?" quiz that's been shared here a couple of times there are a couple of questions suggesting women can't become equal under capitalism.
Then the other day I read about non earners (who are predominantly women) having no value in a capitalist system.
I don't know about political theory but sure someone here will. Could someone explain how feminism and capitalism could or couldn't work together?
Intuitively I feel like our economic/political system does need to change to take into account the unpaid work needed to run a household/raise children/look after people in society who can't support themselves. What political systems would support this and how?
Thanks everyone!

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user1498662042 · 04/08/2017 18:55

In some ways, capitalism (or more specifically Thatcherism) has been of enormous benefit to feminism. It brought about the destruction of male dominated heavy industry and increased female labour force participation massively.

makeourfuture · 04/08/2017 19:07

Basic income is a possible way forward.

KickAssAngel · 04/08/2017 19:18

Capitalism relies upon a certain % of the population being expendable from the workforce. As there are changes in supply/demand then some people need to be employed/laid off. Typically, in any society, those who have the least cultural capital/worth/respect are the ones who get treated as expendable. Various forms of 'persuasion' can be used to make this happen, e.g. the huge campaign at the end of WW2 to make women give 'their' jobs back to the men. Making work less family friendly, an OK-ish benefit system, harassment at work, labelling jobs as things like 'fireman' - there are many, many ways to keep jobs for the boys.

Socialism really isn't much better. Where there are trade unions, they still frequently negotiate to benefit the more highly privileged within the work force, so if you watched Made in Dagenham, the way that the Unions got much better pay & conditions for men, until the women kicked up a fuss. This benefits the employers, as they can have 50% of their workforce being paid less, and it can benefit the male workers, as strokes their male ego and privilege, even though it means that they may well have a lower family income.

I know that business owners often say they can't pay more etc, but actually if they paid ALL their workforce the same, then it gives them better flexibility, and they can increase competitiveness between workers for promotions etc. It can (oddly) benefit the employees as well for everyone to have the same, lower, income as a 2-person income ends up the same, giving better financial equality within the household. Also, it is incredibly difficult for other prices to out-strip the earning potential of the workforce, as simply not enough people can afford to pay over the odds. (Although UK house prices seem to belie this)

So - a socialist approach to wages, but capitalist free market for goods & services, seems, in theory, to be the best way towards equity & respect.

Childrenofthestones · 04/08/2017 20:14

Take a Swatch at how the women in Venezuela are getting on.

QuentinSummers · 04/08/2017 20:32

Very interesting kickass. So maybe that's a bit what the Conservatives have been doing with the (now illegal) employment tribunal costs.

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Moussemoose · 04/08/2017 20:40

I think exploitation of workers rather than just sexism and misogyny is often a big issue. Take prostitution; workers with little power are exploited by the capitalist system. If the workers were empowered they could control the ' means of production' so to speak.

user1498662042 · 04/08/2017 20:42

Capitalism relies upon a certain % of the population being expendable from the workforce. As there are changes in supply/demand then some people need to be employed/laid off.

This is only going to get worse as digitilisation/automation of manufacturing renders much of the workforce redundant. With smart networks and AI, in the future we won't need much work in the traditional sense. In some ways, this dynamic will be to the detriment of men - particularly working class men. The least-educated men in the UK and US tend to work in the most male-dominated jobs, in America with about half of all men with a high school degree or less working in fields that are at least 80 percent male.

That's not to say women don't have it bad in other respects, but neoliberalism, while hurting men, has been the best thing for women in terms of economic and social freedoms. The problem will be though that there will be a lot of unemployed men that are regarded as having no use. It puzzles me that people think of third wave feminism as being left-wing, because it really isn't.

QuentinSummers · 04/08/2017 21:00

People said exactly the same about desktop PCS or the industrial revolution. What actually happened? Many people have jobs making the machines, programming them, servicing them, upgrading them. I don't see any reason why robotics will be any different.

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KickAssAngel · 04/08/2017 21:32

There are always people who worry that whatever the latest tech. is it will bring about widespread unemployment etc. However, what brings about widespread unemployment is being one of the exploited rather than exploiters. Look at which countries suffer the most, or which groups in a society are the most vulnerable - they are the ones who suffer the most with any dramatic changes. (Look at what happened to slaves during the American Revolution, for example)

If you look at the wage gap, it very clearly shows which groups are the most vulnerable (while not even addressing the 'underclass' of people who aren't even earning). Women are more vulnerable than men. People of color more vulnerable than white people, therefore black women are the most vulnerable of all. We have just passed the date where a black woman has been working 'extra' just to have received the same wages as a white man earnt back in 2016. article here (US figures) and this really shows how capitalism works - that we rank certain people, and they get paid more. Male gets more money than female in Westernized capitalism.

btw - even in communist countries where there's a more even m/f split in workforce & incomes, women still typically do childcare & wifework.

user1498662042 · 04/08/2017 21:39

Male gets more money than female in Westernized capitalism.

I don't think that's true of working class men.

KickAssAngel · 04/08/2017 21:41

I linked to an article that shows that. Forbes regularly releases data that also shows that.

Please feel free to link to a credible source to back up your opinion.

usernamedeletedbyMNHQ · 04/08/2017 21:49

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KickAssAngel · 04/08/2017 21:51

Actually, I've just done a bit of reading on Forbes.

In the US the wage gap within delivery & postal services (very much a lower class occupation) the wage gap is over 15%.

This is in an industry where there are set pay scales and it's almost impossible to under or overpay a person. There are private delivery companies, but the US postal service is very carefully controlled.

Yet there is still a HUGE pay gap.

btw - any men who want to try telling me that 15% isn't that big, I'm happy to accept your 15% donation to a women's aid charity as you obviously don't think it's too much money to give away.

usernamedeletedbyMNHQ · 04/08/2017 21:52

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user1498662042 · 04/08/2017 21:53

Specifically:

Poor White boys in particular suffer a combination of disadvantage. Being poor now has a far more negative impact on the education of White children than it does for any other ethnic group. Poor White boys suffer higher rates of exclusion from school and achieve the lowest academic results – making them less likely to enter higher education and therefore more likely to end up in lower-paid, insecure jobs. Men aged 45-49 now suffer the highest rates of suicide – a figure which has increased significantly over the last five years.

user1498662042 · 04/08/2017 21:54

Also more working class men are unemployed, and continue to become unemployed:

www.newstatesman.com/blogs/economics/2012/05/why-isnt-male-unemployment-issue

OlennasWimple · 04/08/2017 21:57

I don't think that there is an example of a political system in the world today that doesn't rely on women's unpaid work to a large degree in order to keep whatever system running. Childcare and looking after elderly parents are the obvious examples, but women do more in the house than men in just about everywhere that researchs this stuff (I think Scandinavia is the closest to parity, but even there women shoulder more of the household burden than men IIRC)

ClaraMumsnet · 04/08/2017 21:58

We're sorry about those posts- we've escorted them from the building.

QuentinSummers · 04/08/2017 21:59

Please can we ignore user? I really want to understand how capitalism affects women specifically

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KickAssAngel · 04/08/2017 21:59

That article doesn't mention the pay gap.

It is true that things are changing. And that does mean that the previous 'winners' will not do as well - but the pay gap is still very much a real thing.

There is some research which indicates that in the first few years post-degree, women are earning comparable amounts in degree related jobs (like teaching, nursing etc) but that this changes by the time people are in their 30s.

But, in general, men earn more than women. White people earn more. Able bodied people earn more. Taller people earn more (yes, really).

Humans have managed to develop an almost infinitesimal number of ways to decide that some people are more 'worthy' than others. Pay is just one of the ways in which we can see those judgements. Capitalism cashes in on that in numerous ways - people are paid different amounts, and those with 'less' often end up paying ridiculous amounts to try and climb their way up the acceptability ladder, so they get paid less and spend more just to try and be equal.

user1498662042 · 04/08/2017 21:59

It's time for bath and medication ihate. Off we go..

user1498662042 · 04/08/2017 22:01

So why does gender and race matter, but not economic class? I've suggested that working class men are worse other than other groups in lost of ways, and you're saying this isn't an issue, right?

KickAssAngel · 04/08/2017 22:08

Ok - so broad brush strokes kind of thing. How capitalism affects women (with the important note that this isn't exclusive to capitalism).

lower pay
longer hours
more wifework
more childcare
more care of the elderly
more care of the impaired
more volunteering for charities
spend more on clothes, cosmetics etc
more vulnerable to abuse due to financial vulnerability (which can be a pressure valve release for otherwise dysfunctional men who then go off to work and contribute to capitalism)
prostitution & sex work
public scapegoats
they provide scapegoating material for Daily Mail type papers which perpetuate sexist myths & therefore shore up the patriarchy
providing the next generation of workers for capitalism

just by existing in their less advantaged position, women are supporting patriarchal capitalism.

user1498662042 · 04/08/2017 22:10

newleftreview.org/II/52/walter-benn-michaels-against-diversity

I suggest you read this, by a socialist academic called Walter Benn Michaels. He's very right.

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