Does this experience support the trans idea of being born in the wrong body?

[Gettheleather]

Excuse the long post. There was child born in 1988 with cloacal exstophy. The babies genitalia was unidentifiable. During surgery internal testicles were removed. The baby spent their first year being raised as a boy and at one year old it was decided that it would be psychologically better for the baby to be raised as a girl. The Drs were under the impression that it didn't really matter, a child without genitalia could be raised either sex and it be fine.

For the next approximately 20 years the child was raised as a girl, chromosomal testing was done for medical reasons and it was discovered they had the XY chromosome. He decided he was a man. He has spoken of always feeling like something wasn't quite right, he had struggled spending many years trying to convince himself and everyone else that he was something he wasn't.

I know most of mumsnet agree that gender is dysphoria is a very real condition and simply question how gender identity law can be exploited by those not genuinely suffering with it and how it will infringe on others rights. But I do believe there are some who question that you can be born in the wrong body at all. If sex is truly only about genitalia then why did this man feel so distressed by the years of living as female? Is it some evidence that sex and gender are more than just biology?

I'm not being goady, I feel it's a valid thing to question.

Biology was involved in this case though? With XY chromosomes he was biologically male regardless of external genitalia.

He was biologically male. That's not my question really. He was raised as a female and always felt it was wrong. He didn't know he was biologically male until he was 20. My point is, many people believe that sex is only about biology. I'm questioning whether his psychological discomfort shows there is another level of what makes someone male or female other than their biology.

AFAIK the child was intersex (?). This is a whole, different complex issue.

If sex is truly only about genitalia then why did this man feel so distressed by the years of living as female? Is it some evidence that sex and gender are more than just biology

It isn't just about genitalia. It's also about chromosomes. The case is complex because of cultural / social influences. There was nothing 'pure' about it in terms of anything objective it could show about sex or gender.

What it does show is the dangers of too early surgery on unfortunate individuals who are born with intersex conditions.

If he was biologically male, how could he be raised as a girl for 20 years?

What about when he didn't develop breasts or start periods?

Wouldn't he then know he wasn't a girl?

I'm not explaining this very well.

He was male and specialists decided he needed to be raised as female. He wasn't female and it caused him a lot of distress, why? What was the underlying reason of this distress when he never knew of the male chromosomes or internal male genitalia.

Was he suffering from body dysmorphia that had been thrust upon him.

Did he have breasts and periods?

Saint Francis. He was given hormones. His mother was told he would kill himself if raised as a male because he had no penis.

He couldn't have had periods af far as I'm aware but his medication did give him breasts.

Yes, if he was biologically male then he wouldn't go through female puberty would he? That might have given him a clue.

But of course he couldn't have been raised as a male without a penis. Poor guy. Intersex people really suffer.

That might be evidence that biology leads to behaviour/feelings, so, the opposite of the trans argument.

Sounds like the case was so badly mixed up that nothing about identity could be easily ascertained from it :(

Can we try and not be so insensitive about a person who went through a very traumatic experience. He was born with his organs on the outside, a gash where you would normally find genitals and his stomach. His mother had to use a saline solution to rinse out his insides when changing his nappy. Maybe you can understand that somebody born with such a major disablitly might not be inherently shocked when they didn't start their periods at thirteen?!

He wasn't suffering from body dysmorphia because intersex is an entirely separate issue.

A trans person would argue their chromosomes don't match their "internal gender". This persons chromosomes did match their "internal gender".

YetAnotherSpartacus you've hit the nail on the head. If anyone wants to understand more about the case I'm not than happy to PM you his name. There's a fair bit of info online about him and he has written a book.

I see the point about biology and his feelings. That's a fair point.

I think you have your answer then. If they had this range of physical experiences and were given medication, they would of course grow up thinking there was something different about them.

There was something different about him.

Oh lordy. NO ONE has been insensitive!!!! You raised the case in a relatively clinical manner and people have responded accordingly. Most posts have said how awful his predicament is. What do you want to hear?

Painting yes that's what I'm thinking. Does his feelings suggest that these 'internal feelings' are very real and perhaps a part of science we don't yet understand.

'Yes, if he was biologically male then he wouldn't go through female puberty would he? That might have given him a clue.'

It was the 'that might have given him a clue' that I felt was insensitive.

Which is a more deterministic view of gender, I suppose
I hate that though, this idea that your chromosomes or genitalia determine your personality. Leaves no room for the individual and just a big bundle of stereotypes
Another interesting angle would be about identifying as the privileged group, I always felt I would be better as a man, I'd get paid more, taken seriously, have to do less housework, benefit from male privilege. Doesnt that just make me sensible?

Joe Holliday?

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3191600/The-agony-learning-ve-raised-wrong-sex-rare-condition-meant-doctors-weren-t-sure-sex-Joe-born-support-Princess-Diana-finally-accepted-girl-came-shattering-discovery.html

Yes. I was trying to avoid naming him.

"Is it some evidence that sex and gender are more than just biology?"

It's the exact opposite of that...

If it's evidence of anything it's that biology absolutely determines gender, despite male genitals and male socialisation he felt male because at a biological level he is, his chromosomes are male.

I mean mostly it's evidence that he got a raw deal and a whole load of life altering decisions made for him with no real consideration about how that might impact him

But if you're going to try and use it as a discussion about gender and biology, he's biologically male.

Do you see what I mean though, you would be arguing that biology trumps erverything ie the opposite of the trans argument