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[mommy101]

I've never been one for feminism but recently I'm starting to realise that, to some extent, it's needed. I've learnt a lot recently and although I think some things are a little 'to far' never did I realise how bad things are in this day and age for women. The trans thing is getting way beyond the joke, equality (which I naievly thought we now had) is clearly not at a stage where it could live up to its name etc...

Anyway... could some feminists tell me anything else I need to know? I'm a baby in all this and would love to learn more....

Id kinda like to know too if you don't mind me joint you awaiting for replies?

I never really thought to much about stuff is see stuff that id think is/was unfair but always took things on an Individual basis rather than link it to part of a "bigger problem"

I have 2 Dds one is due to start secondary school in just over a yr and with the threads on single sex schools and all the uniform threads 're skirt lengths and all the threads stating how girls are dressing like "little hookers" etc things are starting to worry about how the worl really is and how it's going to be for my dd. Everything from those stupid victim blaming posters to the use of the words "fireman" and "policeman" in dd2s reading books.
.i never used to be that aware or pissed off at these things.

MN has alot to answer for

Read Caitlin Moran's "how to be a woman" and then come back!
What things are you interested in?
Menstrual taboo and the fact women around the world drop out of education and even die because they are on their period particularly depresses me.
In this country, rapes and cases like the recent choking/manslaughter one.

This is good for some facts:

www.unwomen.org/en/digital-library/publications/2015/4/progress-of-the-worlds-women-2015

There is a section just on the developed world, if you're particularly interested in that.

I really recommend reading Cordelia Fine's Delusions of Gender www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0079LSJ6A?tag=mumsnetforum-21

I read it when it was first released and it was a revelation - finally! I had something to counter the "well it's natural that you'll want to give up your career" and "it's been proven that women are more empathetic and suited to softer skills^ which i had a fuckton of from my nearest and dearest

Don't want to swamp you with reading, but depending on your own personal leanings, I really enjoyed both Lise Elliott and Deborah Cameron.

Lise Elliott's Pink Brain, Blue Brain is about the neuroscience of brain plasticity in early childhood and why it's impossible to answer the nature/nurture question, and why in any case the differences are nigh-on undetectable anyway.

Deborah Cameron's The Myth of Mars and Venus is more of a social science approach. She brilliantly debunks the "women talk 7 times as much" urban myth, and also has a whole chapter on "no means no," and how, in ordinary conversation, people of both sexes don't use a straight "no". People typically defuse tension/avoid conflict by a more roundabout refusal - "I'd love to come for a drink after work, but I've got something else on..." She points out that men not only understand this sort of style of discourse in non-sexual contexts, they typically use it themselves. So the pretence that "she didn't convey her 'no' clearly enough" is exactly that - a pretence, used to excuse criminal behaviour, not a genuine failure in understanding.

Kat Bayard's equality illusion is really good as well.

All this looks like you need to be really well read to take part, but you really don't. A lot of us read a lot through interest, or because the types of trolls we get on this part of the forum tend to go away if you send facts that they can't disprove at them.

Welcome. Welcome to the dark side. We have robust debates, but I've rarely met a finer bunch of women.

Recommend the books above as well as Germaine Greer's Female Eunuch...Pretty old now but still resonates and I can honestly say it opened my eyes.
Once you're aware, you can never look back and you sadly realise how unequal the world is & how much feminism is needed, everywhere!

No problem at all Giles

And thank you everyone, plenty of reading for me

All of Andrea Dworkins books are available to download as Ebooks, free of charge (you can make a donation)
radfem.org/dworkin/

I suggest you start with Right Wing women.

a whole chapter on "no means no," and how, in ordinary conversation, people of both sexes don't use a straight "no". People typically defuse tension/avoid conflict by a more roundabout refusal - "I'd love to come for a drink after work, but I've got something else on..." She points out that men not only understand this sort of style of discourse in non-sexual contexts, they typically use it themselves. So the pretence that "she didn't convey her 'no' clearly enough" is exactly that - a pretence, used to excuse criminal behaviour, not a genuine failure in understanding.

Off topic I guess, but this has left me sitting here like this:

It's so obvious isn't it?

(What I mean is, it's obvious once it's been pointed out, but I had never thought of it.)

I'm another one who seconds Cordelia Fine's Delusions of Gender.

Once you realise that it's nurture, not nature, a lot of things start to fit into place.

I'm as guilty as anyone of buying into the whole damn system for most of my life, whilst at the same time thinking soo frequently, hang on a minute. Once you connect the dots, they are chained together. There is no going back. It's obvious, and it makes so much sense.

Similar to you, it was the trans thing that woke me up to feminism in the first place.

I was immediately outraged, so I lurked on the feminist boards to find out more.

Now I'm a proud feminist. And I'll tell anyone.

It's like I was going through life without a road map. Now I have one. It sometimes takes me to places I don't want to go, though!

Well done and welcome. It's brilliant that you can raise your family with feminismist awareness.

And I honestly think mumsnet has done a lot to raise awareness of feminism.

The logic is just undeniable.

What I mean is, it's obvious once it's been pointed out, but I had never thought of it

This is how I feel about SO MANY ISSUES as I become more and more aware of feminist thinking. Once you start seeing these things, you come to understand the world in a different, much less flattering light. Ignorance may be bliss - but then we end up contributing to our own oppression. Realising that women are in no way immune from perpetuating sexism and misogyny was a massive lightbulb moment for me.

There are lots of amazing books out there - I'm sure there used to be a reading list thread around here somewhere. My approach has been, very gradually interspersed with my other reading, to alternate a 'modern' book (such as most of the ones already suggested on this thread - am currently on 'Wifework' by Susan Maushart) with a 'classic' (Greer, de Beauvoir, Friedman etc) to try and gain 'historical' perspective as well.

Have you heard of the Bechdel test? A useful little rule to evaluate films and put them in context as to how much they normalise sidelining women.

Listen to radio 4's women's hour podcasts as well, i learn loads from there. The guilty feminist podcast is ace too, very funny but covers important issues too.

Welcome! Be prepared to feel anger, despair, fear, concern.... but the gradual confidence to stand up against discrimination with the solidarity of your sisters supporting you

Thanks all, datan you described exactly what I've been doing!! I think my work also woke me up to it, as without realising at first, there's definitely some sexism going on

Add message | Report | Message poster FreezerBird Tue 25-Jul-17 01:46:35
a whole chapter on "no means no," and how, in ordinary conversation, people of both sexes don't use a straight "no". People typically defuse tension/avoid conflict by a more roundabout refusal - "I'd love to come for a drink after work, but I've got something else on..." She points out that men not only understand this sort of style of discourse in non-sexual contexts, they typically use it themselves. So the pretence that "she didn't convey her 'no' clearly enough" is exactly that - a pretence, used to excuse criminal behaviour, not a genuine failure in understanding.

Agree with freezer

We have robust debates, but I've rarely met a finer bunch of women.

I agree Xenophile. The knowledge, personalities and indeed wit on here is fantastic - it's my favourite place online to discuss things.

I'm another one who didn't give feminism too much thought but was woken up by the trans isssue. I have three daughters, two adults and one teen and if anything, I think gender roles are becoming more rigid than when I was young. This board has been an education to me, I don't post much but I read a lot.

I'm probably not the best to advise anything someone should know about feminism but as well as all the issues raised male violence against women and girls, street harassment etc is all key for me. The sexualisation and objectification of women and girls starts so early, especially now with pornography further normalising and enforcing such a view.

"Everyday Sexism" by Laura Bates is well worth reading and I certainly third (or fourth) "Delusions of Gender".

Sorry for starting the reading avalanche! I only suggested Caitlin Moran's because it's very readable and quite light touch on feminism so an easy introduction. Also apparently she's a mumsnetter. Sometimes I wonder if she's a regular on this board

Wow so many suggestions.kind of reminds me why I used to avoid the threads I am just to dim to really fully understand it all. I try and I am trying to do my best to ensure my Dds are aware that they can do or be anything they want and wear what they want and any problems are nothing to do with them.

These threads always scare me though because I just never realised til now just the little things along the way I've had to put up with that I just assumed were normal.as trusted adults would never allow anything bad happen right? The whole "boys will be boys" thing...

I'm sure you are not too dim!
There is probably a ton of good videos on YouTube but I hate watching videos! Or there is the guilty feminist podcast.

Wow so many suggestions.kind of reminds me why I used to avoid the threads I am just to dim to really fully understand it all.

Definitely don't think that - it's definitely not the case. Whatever you've read (or not) you know what your experiences are and what you're seeing. You're doing a great job raising your daughters to be confident and powerful. Don't avoid threads!

Please don't say you're too dim (would a man ever say that? )

For something easy, but very telling follow #manwhohasirall on Twitter. I don't see how anyone could fail to be a feminist after reading those tweets!

I dont any more don't worry, started off as kind if an accident I'd just click on a title and not realise the section it was in.

I do find it all fascinating though. Luckily for me I'm quite headstrong so whenever say family would dare suggest something I seemed unfair or wrong or bullshit I'd jolly well say! Drive them crazy as I was probably some horrific defiant chikd who loaned about mot being able to play rugby at school....