'Gender identity' and discrimination

[FurryGiraffe]

I have just been sent a link to a survey my employer is running on gender discrimination (I'm an academic and its a university survey in conjunction with the institution's Athena Swan charter renewal). It repeatedly uses the terminology of 'gender identity': asking whether I have suffered discrimination (in a variety of contexts) because of my 'gender identity' and then asking what my 'gender identity' is. Nowhere does it mention discrimination on the basis of biological sex, or what my biological sex is. And I am hopping mad at the potential that this has to conceal the issues.

I haven't suffered discrimination on the basis of my gender identity. I have suffered discrimination on the basis of my biological sex, insofar as I have twice lost out on career progression opportunities as a result of being on maternity leave. But a survey that concentrates on 'gender identity' isn't going to identify pregnancy and childbirth as a cause of gender identity based discrimination, is it? Because natal males identifying as female don't become pregnant and natal females who identify as male do (or at least can), so from a gender identity perspective, pregnancy is not a root cause of discrimination, is it? Meanwhile, a very real cause of discrimination against women will go unidentified because we are asking the wrong question.

Grr. Sorry. I'm not sure what I'm after if anything other than a rant.

I hate that I'm even suggesting this, but anyway.

Just go in all wide eyed and innocent and can someone explain this gender stuff to me please?

"Ah, okay. . But what happens when this occurs? That might be tricky, hmmm?"

Hopefully, you might see it unravel before your eyes. (I hope you do, that would be awesome.)

Feels odd that discrimination, which is surely about how others view you and treat you, would be linked to something that is often non-existent and, if it does exist, can be hidden -like gender identity- as opposed to something observable like sex.
I honestly wouldn't know how to answer this survey.
I'd be tempted to overegg it and write about my feelings of sadness at being a woman and the workplace not allowing me to go and touch up my makeup several times an hour, not allowing me to wear pink sparkly dresses, not providing tissues for when I want to cry over a sad film I watched last night, not providing several lifts so I don't have to walk upstairs in heels, of not providing a hair removal station for those few hairs that start sprouting after a shave.

Because this is already getting out of hand everywhere. Transwomen demanding urinals in female toilets, for instance.

As far as I know, we are still, legally, sex-based protected here.

And you need a gender reassignment certificate to qualify as a woman.

But well-meaning people who want to jump the gun in order to be inclusive, are simply setting a precedent that they will not be able to come back from.

I would gen up on the law as it stands, and try to make sure they stick to it. Apart from anything else they do need to keep inside the law so they're not vulnerable to being sued.

Because there will be people who will absolutely try and exploit this.

Hopefully, you might see it unravel before your eyes. (I hope you do, that would be awesome.)

That would be lovely. But I suspect unlikely- you haven't met our HR department. I strongly suspect they will babble at me incoherently and then mutter under their breath about 'academics thinking they're so clever'. I might try it anyway.

FurryGiraffe

If you can, set some time aside beforehand to get your argument straight.

Think of all the objections, and your rebuttal of them.

If you can link to websites and articles, so much the better (maybe in a follow up email so you can both leave a paper trail and not look too 'ranty' during the meeting.)

The main question is whether gender identity replaces sex discrimination. It's an easy question, but, like you, I suspect the answer will be unnecessarily complicated.

Because people do not want to see this for what it is.

And, no doubt, it will be mostly about toilets. There is, I believe, under the health and safety regulations still a law in place that says you must provide a female only toilet. (And a male only toilet).

You can make provision for someone who doesn't want that, but those two must be provided.

That doesn't mean, unfortunately, that you can prevent people from the opposite sex using them. But they must be provided.

It stops the irritating and automatic assumption that the women's loo will be the one to go gender neutral.

At the very least, it will raise the question of why a transwoman insists on using the ladies, when there is a gender neutral facility provided.

You may not get anywhere officially, but it does tend to unmask the pretence. And people begin to see the damage.

Or you could ask how to balance the needs of a trans student versus a female student who won't attend university unless she can have single sex accomodation / bathrooms guaranteed. I've used that one with people at work before and I've seen a couple of lightbulb moments- or rather oh shit we can get sued moments

Precisely. Muslim women for instance.

People never seem to take this to its logical conclusion. Partly they
just don't think, and partly they don't realise the drive behind it is highly motivated.

This person for instance.

Sex is a protected characteristic under UK law. It is discrimination if something disproportionately affects one sex more than another. It does not cease to be discriminatory just because it affects 1 man and 20 women.

Pregnancy and maternity have their own protections.

The Canadian case about expressing milk would have a different result here as (a) the vast majority of people affected would be woman and (b) it would be protected in its own right.

Lass

Well that's very reassuring.

So all these universities that are automatically turning the ladies' loo into the gender neutral one but keeping the mens' are actually in breach of discrimination law?

And one other question. If a transwoman wants to go to the ladies loo, but she is disturbing the majority of the women in there, can something be done about that based on biological sex protection?

Or do the identity laws conflict with it currently?

Fucking hell Datun that video is just phenomenal.

It was all me-me-me. I thought those security peeps seemed quite reasonable in their handling of it. It seemed all about validation and fuck all about using the toilet. You could tell there was male socialisation there because not once did the person acknowledge how it might make other people feel. Feel sorry for this person as they clearly have a lot of distress but goodness me.

Sorry for all the 'fucks' I just find it all so devoid of logic.

WhattheChuff

Actually, that's not even half of it. Gendertrender has an article. He has 'adopted' 14 year old trans-girl, boy, I can't remember? He is definitely heterosexual, though.

Calls women twits and bitches.

He has form for 'playing the victim'. Under multiple Reddit accounts someone is always going to get sued.

He dances in a bikini on tables, clearly not being held to the same standards that a woman would be.

www.instagram.com/p/BWZln9xjPlR/

And here he is toting a gun talking about something that I think must be along the lines of bitcoin (I honestly couldn't put myself through watching it).

But yeah. Just like a woman. and obviously no problem at all sharing a loo with him.

And this is progressive. Not about mentally unstable people, at all.

Gendertrender link.

gendertrender.wordpress.com/

Sorry the legs are playing up, try clicking on the text, not the picture, if you are interested.

*links

Oh dear. I don't know what to say.
Doesn't really seem like a women by any stretch of the imagination but definitely someone that would have benefited from some sort psychiatric intervention.
I guess it's a very "welcoming cult" for the vulnerable. Or just an excuse to be a brazen misogynist.

He was in the forces for 10 years, apparently. Not sure how true that is.

For me, it's the wholesale deception.

Whether it's motivated by delusion, AGP (which I think it is in this case), or misogyny or illness. Whatever the reason, The fact that they have managed to convince so many people to go along with it is staggering The fact that he had the sheer brass neck to post that on the Internet and expect some kind of positive reaction, is also staggering.

There were about 8 1/2 thousand comments on that video, most of which have been deleted. Almost all of which were negative. So he made another video!

What was enlightening to me was that there were many comments from other transwomen calling him out. Saying if you don't even make an attempt to pass, you can't expect women to be comfortable. Use the men's until you pass etc.

Adding that even if he couldn't ever pass, the fact that he attempted to, by wearing a wig, make up, dress, etc, would at least show women that he was serious and less of a threat. To me that's just more deceit and missing the point entirely.

The woman in the OP, is different. At least she understands the plight of women. But it's still expecting people to go on along with something that is simply not true. For whatever reason.

Sorry, that last paragraph was mixing my threads up with the trans-man who menstruates .

So all these universities that are automatically turning the ladies' loo into the gender neutral one but keeping the mens' are actually in breach of discrimination law?

Not necessarily. The keeping the men's is a matter of convenience as more users can use it more quickly than the other type and many women do not want to go into a loo which has a urinal.Does making the other loos gender neutral result in a shortfall of women's loos?

I personally would not be bothered by a gender neutral loo , depending on the layout but it may well be discriminatory towards female Muslim students.

That video, my goodness. The principal person in it is not unique either; I've seen quite a few like them in how they post on social media, attacking women, revelling in their imposing on women's space and so forth. It frustrates me no end so many can't see this for what it is.

I have to think carefully about how vocal I'm prepared to be. My department has a fair sized contingent of trans allies. It's a bit of a minefield.

I empathise - though it's not the same or as bad, I have these frustrations with much of my school's Feminist Society (and feminist discussion online everywhere except here, another reason this board is so reassuring). There's so much I want to get into on this but don't feel I can (which is ridiculous on my part, really). I'm lucky two of my closest friends agree on this and have begun to broach it "gently" with a couple of others.

Re casino meltdown guy:

He's a massive attention seeker and seems to like to wind people up. Some of the responses he gets in this conversation are awful but I think he knew perfectly well that was the response he would get.

archive.is/m4fHJ

I've seen quite a few like them in how they post on social media, attacking women, revelling in their imposing on women's space and so forth. It frustrates me no end so many can't see this for what it is.

YY.

venusinscorpio

God, that link. I knew he was an attention seeker but I hadn't realised how, even when he gets massively negative reactions, he still does it.

It's not just a thick skin, it is a determination to ride roughshod over anyone who objects.

A man who not only couldn't give a shit about boundaries, but actively seeks to centre himself in dismantling them.

And they wonder why we don't want them in our spaces!

I'm sure there are loads of transgender women who are not like this. But the ones who are pushing it are the ones who don't give a fuck about women. The very fact that you want in, should keep you out.

But the ones who are pushing it are the ones who don't give a fuck about women. The very fact that you want in, should keep you out.

Precisely. It's a massive red flag.

A man who not only couldn't give a shit about boundaries, but actively seeks to centre himself in dismantling them.

Very much so. Then also proceeding to abuse women who object (I'm not sure if this one does but I've seen many do), post aggressive images aimed at women, generally respond in a manner which suggests not only do they not care about women's boundaries but actually thrive upon making women uncomfortable, knowing they're backed up by many often well meaning but in my opinion completely misguided people. To me it seems to be the erosion of women's spaces through aggressive and threatening means.

nolove

Some of them threaten you with rape, others cry/threaten suicide and ask you how you can be so mean.

It's all the same controlling mechanism.