London Underground to make all their announcement 'gender neutral'

[biscuitmillionaire]

OMFG is it April Fool's Day?
Staff are to be disciplined for committing the sin of saying 'ladies and gentlemen' because it makes some people feel 'uncomfortable'?

bbc link here

This is just mind-boggling. Has the world gone insane?

Fucking Stonewall strike again.

World has gone insane!!!

I saw this and thought I don't like this because I actually like "ladies and gentlemen".

But it is not that long ago I remember being almost the sole voice on here saying I didn't have any problem with that salutation; that it is a salutation I use when I give a public talk. The general consensus was " don't call us ladies"

I loathe ladies and gentleman. It sounds so old-fashioned and didn't it once just refer to the upper clarses?

In the context of TFL announcements, I'd prefer 'everyone', 'passengers' or 'travellers'.

Having said that, I'm also aware that so much sexist language still exists and women are ridiculed or ignored when they point this out, yet as soon as an issue of language affects a trans person then it is OMGWTFBBQ we must CHANGE. Plus it is yet more public acknowledgement of a lot of the twaddle peddled by that movement.

Given the context of the change I think it's bloody ridiculous and I agree with Spartacus. Seems like when ever us women have a problem with something people fight against change but when it's something to do with the trans community people fall over themselves to make them feel 'comfortable'.

It stinks.

I don't mind scrapping the connotations that go with 'ladies' that don't appear to apply to gentlemen.

But it doesn't address the problem, at all. It's catering to the 75-gender-millennials and their woefully superficial stance on gender identity. Nothing to do with sexism.

As an aside, is there a gender neutral term for sir and madam?

I'm thinking of the service industry, particularly. Restaurants, shops, etc.

If you were trying to find a way around addressing somebody when those terms apply, is there a gender neutral equivalent?

datun

I know its not gender neutral but most restaurants seem to think that

Guy

Is the best word to us

I like the phrase ladies and gentlemen as well

L and G doesn't particularly bother me. The new wording doesn't particularly bother me either.

However, I completely agree with what YetAnotherSpartacus said:

so much sexist language still exists and women are ridiculed or ignored when they point this out, yet as soon as an issue of language affects a trans person then it is OMGWTFBBQ we must CHANGE. Plus it is yet more public acknowledgement of a lot of the twaddle peddled by that movement.

I know its not gender neutral but most restaurants seem to think that
guy Is the best word to use

I hate "guy". I am not a guy.

Stonewall are a fucking embarrassment. Anyone who needs to be validated by having the recorded tube voice acknowledge their special gender needs urgent professional intervention.

I don't mind 'Ladies and Gentlemen' at all - they're a pair - it's not quite got the same patronising connotations as a waiter coming up to a table and asking us 'ladies' what we would like to drink (and TBH, even then, it's more the manner than the word - I've had waiters and waitresses who've used it in such a way as to not grate on the nerves)

Guys also rubs me up the wrong way. I read, somewhere, a post where a woman tried using 'Girl' or 'Girls' whenever she'd been called a 'guy' in the same conversation, and the men she used it two ranged from baffled to insulted to angry. It wasn't enlightening (anyone here could have predicted it), but it was quite funny

Also, I should try telling TfL that having thousands of adverts plastered all over their platforms that use women's bodies as sex objects makes me feel 'uncomfortable' and guess how far I'd get with that.

Perhaps we should try anyway, biscuit. Now would be the perfect time to point it out.

Fantastic point Biscuit.

I'm not a 'guy' (which is usually paired with 'gal'), but neither am I a Lady. I loathe the term. When referring to groups of people in informal contexts I tend to use the term 'people' or 'peoples' (in a jokey way) because I like to be gender neutral from my second wave feminist roots.

Maybe we need new terms?

I feel like if the term 'ladies and gentlemen' being used on the tube is something you feel that strongly about that you feel the need to campaign against then you're living a pretty good life and you can't have that many problems.

I don't understand this sudden need for gender neutral language that some people are pushing, ignoring the fact that men and women DO have differences (and that's okay) and trying to lump everyone in together does very little for equality. Additionally I don't think pandering to the >1% of people who say they're 'gender neutral' is helpful either.

The collective term for both men and women could be folks, say. Whether you like it or not, it's neutral.

But I was more thinking specifically of a clip I've seen of a transwoman crying because they were told they couldn't use the woman's loo at a casino.

The manager was trying to calm them down (people were watching) whilst maintaining that they should use the unisex loo.

Normally you might say something like 'I understand, sir. Let's discuss this in my office' - the conversation was quite long so the need to keep addressing the person went on and on.

But he couldn't say sir and didn't want to say madam (the person was indistinguishable from a man). I can't think of a single substitute that is neutral.

Indeed biscuit. As DeleteOrDecay and Spartacus pointed out, what's most irksome about this is that as soon as "trans"/"non-binary" people have an issue with something it's changed almost instantly, with minimal consultation, just done as a matter of course. So much of language still belies sexism, there are so many adverts which objectify women and demean women thrust upon us when we travel, yet our objections are rarely heard without being dismissed, yet this has been acted upon so swiftly.

I don't have a particular issue with "ladies and gentleman" although I dislike "ladies" when specifically used - the connotations as Datun said I dislike and I feel are sexist (act like a lady, being ladylike etc). However as has been said, this action hasn't been taken for that reason.

I also have a strong dislike for "guy". I refuse to use it in any context and to describe anyone. I don't even like it to refer to boys/men let alone that it's now considered appropriate to refer to girls/women - I think this is another example of men being default and a word which originally referred to males being acceptable to use for women (similar to "mankind", "chairman" etc). This never happens the other way round and would be met with derision/ire if it was as SpaghettiAndMeatballs pointed out.

I'm also quite neutral on the use of Ladies & Gentlemen, because it's rarely used as a loaded term the way that lady/ladies on its own is. It's referring to a mixed group of people. That article is idiotic - not once does it reference who is being made uncomfortable and how this change will help them. Usually, when you ask people to change their behaviour, or explain that you're changing a policy, you explain why you're doing it and to whose benefit it will be - but not here?

So for example: We now refer to firefighters, and not firemen because of the entry of women into the profession who need to be represented by a gender neutral term.

But just ditching ladies and gentlemen? It's not for the benefit of trans people, who presumably move from thinking of themselves as gentlemen to being ladies, and would not be made uncomfortable by this. So it's to accommodate non binary, then. So this ought to be explained. And then we can all be clear on what's happening.

Yet feminists who object to the use of the word lady are told to calm down and not be ridiculous! The double standards are making me absolutely fizz.

It's not about being made to feel uncomfortable. It's about controlling language, and through that clearing a path to control how people think. Plain as day.

But he couldn't say sir and didn't want to say madam (the person was indistinguishable from a man). I can't think of a single substitute that is neutral.

Comrade?

geekaMaxima

Comrade. It's completely neutral in terms of gender, but not in anything else!

Although I do love the fact that socially it would be a great choice.

I always quite liked the French Revolution title of Citizen, but obviously French is so gendered the women were called the equivalent of Citizeness. I don't really see the point of sex specific titles, but I think I'm coming at it from a completely different angle to TFL.

My feeling is that it doesn't matter what sex you are, so why do we need it in our titles, whereas I think this announcement change is more about there aren't just men and women, so we need something to include the ones that don't fit into those categories.

I've never been that bothered about ladies and gentlemen - I do get the point about ladylike behaviour, but I've also heard people unconsciously use gentleman about some men but not others - basically use gentleman as standard, but refer to young working class men only as 'men'.

It's a bit old fashioned, but it's only really used to address a large group, formally, so I think it adds to the formality.

Maybe they should add 'my lords' back in!

"So comrades, what takes our fancy from the menu tonight"? :)

I would love 'comrades'

Is there another term that would be both gender neutral and politically neutral?

I'm amazed I can't think of one.

I agree entirely that it's absolutely ridiculous that as soon as 'non-binary' or whatever the fuck they're called people whine that they're a little bit put out about something everyone's falling over themselves to change everything when women are supposed to 'calm down' and shut up about issues that apply to them.

As for a gender neutral term, how about 'everybody' or 'everyone' for a group?

In Irish the polite term to address a person/people is 'a chara/a chairde' which directly translated means 'friend/friends' - which is nice but comes across a bit threatening in English!